Heroin and the great guitarists

[Submariner85]

This is my cat (Buddy) when he is on heroin

[JohnnyThunders]

"Johnny Thunders, NY transvestite, was a famous shooting star and wrote some of the most beautiful country and western ballads while floating. He did his best album, So Alone, on China White. Thunders was known to nod off on the floor of his friends apartments, guitar in hand. On stage, the NY Doll could either be brilliant or incoherent."

I've never heard Johnny Thunders described as a country and western guy. But I understand were Johnny, Keith and Eric were coming from when they were on the stuff. There are certain types of people who need that stimulus to get them to that place were it's really not about the notes, cords, etc but about the feelings that they are trying to express and then can't. It just will not come out but for a time the drug get's them there and it reflected in music that grips you, music that peels the layers of shit right off and get's right down to that person’s soul. But it doesn't last, the long downward spiral of addiction starts. And then you see the person as they struggle to either deny it or get-off it.

For me when a guy was in the early years of addiction is when he made some of his best if not the best music of his career. As their addiction grew then their music goes down the tubes and they either die like Johnny or get sober like Eric. Unfortunately the sober Eric is pretty much a bore for me. Has no soul, could it be the drugs ate it? So, given that does it mean that the only good guitarist are ones that were on drugs? Not necessarily but for some reason the only ones I tend to like were.

I always liked Johnny Thunders because for me he was reverse role model along with my friend John W…. I watched my father drink himself to death and that set me straight on alcohol but he died before the drug scene started. I spend years with my friend John W. trying to keep him semi-straight and off hard drugs as I dabbled myself. I watched Johnny Thunders rise with the New York Dolls and then slowly fade with the Heartbreakers. I saw him about 15-20 times from 72-82 and watched some incredible performances and some absolute train-wrecks. During that same time period I had to come to grips with my own demons and John and Johnny really helped me get through it by showing me what addiction is really all about. It is the most horrible existence one can have and it also the most exhilarating at times. Unfortunately they both didn’t make it because the horrible usually outweighs the exhilaration.

I still deal with addiction everyday even though I ‘ve been clean for 25 years. The hole is always there just waiting to step into it. Every person needs different things, every person has to experience life themselves, and you can’t get answers from books or people or family. Support yes, answers no. You have to figure it out for yourself because Daddy and Mommy aren’t always right.

[SteveE9C6]

If you look at my profile you will note that my interests are listed as "Christ, Family, Music, and Medicine." I won't pontificate about my religious views other than to comment that "science without God makes no sense". I'm well educated and traveled. I was an army medic in vietnam. I saw firsthand what heroin did to friends. I saw it cripple my sister and turn one brother into a street person who has never recovered...even today. I practice medicine for a living. I'm semi retired after a career starting as an enlisted army medic, going to medical school, becoming an army officer and serving for 23 years. Now I practice in a rural outreach clinic that is a Christian ministry. I am in a very poor area of Texas which has a horrific drug problem. While heroin is a problem, meth is the big problem now. There is nothing glamorous or beneficial about drug use. I honestly can't fathom the mind of someone who can claim otherwise.

[KeyOfZ]

There is nothing glamorous or beneficial about drug use. I honestly can't fathom the mind of someone who can claim otherwise.

I totally understand this point of view but I also remember the first time a played guitar stoned (from Marijuana)

It didn't make me any better but it was definatley fun!

I remember the sound of my Fender 85 amp being HUGE!

Maybe it made me play in ways that I wouldn't while sober....I dunno

Also made McDonalds Quarter Pounders with cheese taste extra yummy

[edgar_allan_poe]

I totally understand this point of view but I also remember the first time a played guitar stoned (from Marijuana)

True...but pot and heroine are 2 different beasts.

[JohnnyB]

It is the most horrible existence one can have and it also the most exhilarating at times. Unfortunately they both didn’t make it because the horrible usually outweighs the exhilaration. 

I read an interview with Tony Bennett a few years ago, and the subject came up of his album collaborations with jazz pianist Bill Evans, whether Evans' heroin addiction was noticeable or an obstacle in the project, and how Tony deals with addicts in his life as an entertainer.

The answer that stuck in my head was, "I've never known a happy junkie."

[Fife]

Interesting topic ....

One of my psychologist friends once told me that musicians struggle with compulsive disorders of various kinds and drug addiction falls into that category. Maybe it's the same gene that makes these people such great artists, their ability to follow their own impulses very freely, that also makes them vulnerable to become addicts. It's very sad.

I often wonder how much more Jimi Hendrix would have created had he still been around, or Charlie Parker, or ....

Some of them were just lucky enough to live through it an eventually pull out of the spiral, like Eric Clapton for instance.

But I don't think that drug use made these artists any better than they really were. It was something that they were sucked into because of who they were. And it has destroyed many of these great artists.

--Fife

[earachemyeye]

HeHe.... Heroin=good music.... That's a good one!! Sober=bad music!! YOU GUYS ARE KILLIN ME!!

Joe

[Guest Mike Lee]

Fife, I tend to agree with this. Doing something really different and groundbreaking requires someone who has the will to diverge from the mainstream. Someone who doesn't worry about what anyone else thinks, or at least doesn't let such worry get in the way of their vision. In some ways they are hard-wired to break the rules and make up their own.

These personality traits are consistent with doing all the things society says you shouldn't do, and it is reflected in alcohol use, drug use, sexual behavior, non-traditional relationships, and so on.

So it all seems to go hand-in-hand. There's is no cause and effect relating creativity to drug use, they just tend to coincide.

But it's not just musicians and artists. People who rise to high level leadership positions often have similar demons.

[El Kabong]

Crystal meth makes me feel like some one is always watching me when I play. I have crazy fans: They are peeping at me through heating ducts, hiding amongst the flora in my back yard and they are *always* talking about me. Can heroin claim this? Nooooooooooo, me thinks not.

[Disturber]

HeHe.... Heroin=good music.... That's a good one!! Sober=bad music!! YOU GUYS ARE KILLIN ME!!

Joe

For what it's worth If I where to

list my 20 favourite albums of all times

I'd say probably 80% or more of those

albums where created under the influence

of something. Be it alcohol, drugs (or

in Prince case a bad case of jeesus frekish christianity).

I think to create great art you need to call

on the spirits in some way. For some it really

works, for some it's it works for a short

time, then they burn out. For some artists

the hight of their career where/are when

they live life to the fullest, partying &

creating at a frenzy. Then when they quit the

drugs, booze and partying they perhaps

are not burnt out but the real spark

is gone, (they've become rich and lazy.

Oasis, Guns & Roses, Def Leppard, Rick James etc,

etc etc etc the list goes on to infinity).

And for some (most probably) it's just plain missery that

leads to the abuse of hard drugs. But for

them I guess taking the drugs works as

selfmedication and help bring out bad experiences

and feelings and putting them on paper and

into music. These people seem often to perish

in the end, (Curt Kobain, Billie Holiday, janis Joplin,

Hendrix, Phil Lynott, Richard Manuel of The Band etc etc.

The list goes on endlessly).

The feelings and music they shared are

probably the most "true" music I know off.

And I don't recommend heavy drugs to anyone

and I've never used them myself.

[edgar_allan_poe]

For what it's worth If I where to

list my 20 favourite albums of all times

I'd say probably 80% or more of those

albums where created under the influence

of something. Be it alcohol, drugs (or

in Prince case a bad case of jeesus frekish christianity).

True...but these albums are created by incredibly talented people. I would say that the record succeeded *in spite of*, not *because of* the substance abuse.

[Bob P]

Salem,

When the time comes I'll give you three fifty for that tweed Deluxe.......

Bob

[Disturber]

For what it's worth If I where to

list my 20 favourite albums of all times

I'd say probably 80% or more of those

albums where created under the influence

of something. Be it alcohol, drugs (or

in Prince case a bad case of jeesus frekish christianity).

True...but these albums are created by incredibly talented people. I would say that the record succeeded *in spite of*, not *because of* the substance abuse.

Sometimes true I guess, but far from always.

There is more than just talent needed to become

a great artist. You need to have something to

say. You need to have something to share.

Real feelings and emotions.

Cliff Richard is talented, but his music has

always been f*cing horrible, just as an

example. And all the people in the Idol show

etc. Talented but so unecessary. They have

nothing real to share.

Then there is the case of the songwriter, creator

who came out on the other side. Survived

drug abuse and now has a story to tell.

Names that come to mind directly are

country musics bad boy Steve Early who

ran rampage through Nashville high

on whatever substance was available.

He wrote some great stuff then.

Guitar town album, "devils right hand",

"hillbilly highway", "The rain came down"

and "someday". These are a collection

of my favourite country songs.

Then Steve stopped using the bad stuff.

Became clean. Had another story to tell.

He had looked death in the eye.

Some of the albums he has delivered

AD (after drugs) are also just magnificent.

Like "El Corazon" for instance.

The same with Rufus Wainwright.

He was seriously into drugs when

he got help from Elton John to stop.

Today he is perhaps the most interesting

"new" white American artist out there.

A truly amazing songwriter with a story

to tell. I doubt it had been so good had

he not messed with the sweet stuff, and

came from a somewhat f*cked up family

situation.

[edgar_allan_poe]

Sometimes true I guess, but far from always.

There is more than just talent needed to become

a great artist. You need to have something to

say. You need to have something to share.

Real feelings and emotions.

Agreed. For the record, I am not naive to the argument of opiates enhancing creativity. One of my favorite authors was a legendary opium user. Samuel Taylor Coleridge wrote Kubla Khan on an opium high. It has long been argued that opium enhanced Coleridge's senses and enabled him to write this magnificient piece. But Coleridge himself claimed that to be bullshit. He denounced opium every time he had the chance. In 1814 Coleridge wrote a letter to a friend where he said something to the effect of (I am paraphrasing so please don't kill me if I don't get this right)

Thirdly, tho' before God I dare not lift up my eyelids, & only do not despair of his mercy because to despair would be adding crime to crime; yet to my fellow-men I may say, that I was seduced into the ACCURSED habit ignorantly.

That statement had a profound effect on me when I read it as a teenager.

I guess that my main problem with this whole argument is this...

A no-talent hack will not become Coleridge after taking an opiate. Does it effect the talent? Absolutely...but I would argue that the effect is not always positive. Its a complete crapshoot, and not worth the risks.

[Disturber]

.

One of my favorite authors was a legendary opium user. Samuel Taylor Coleridge wrote Kubla Khan on an opium high. It has long been argued that

A no-talent hack will not become Coleridge after taking an opiate. Does it effect the talent? Absolutely...but I would argue that the effect is not always positive. Its a complete crapshoot, and not worth the risks.

One of my favorite authors was a legendary opium user. Samuel Taylor Coleridge wrote Kubla Khan

Have not read. Must check out if I get the chance.

A no-talent hack will not become Coleridge after taking an opiate. Does it effect the talent? Absolutely...but I would argue that the effect is not always positive. Its a complete crapshoot, and not worth the risks.

Very true. When I was young(er) and handsome I enjoyed

to party, but I never touched drugs. Wouldn't dare. Seems

stupid.

[Slim]

The best Aerosmith stuff was written around the time they were completly wacked on heroin (Wings/Rocks/Toys), then they kind of went over the edge during Draw the Line, and it definitely could be heard in the recordings. I dont think they have been able to put out that kind of stuff since then (Well, Pump was actually not too bad).

Can any one name bands have acutally been able to get clean and put out stuff as good and creative as when they were wacked? Hmm, I'm having a hard time naming any.

[edgar_allan_poe]

Can any one name bands have acutally been able to get clean and put out stuff as good and creative as when they were wacked? Hmm, I'm having a hard time naming any.

That can easily be turned around. Is it not possible that heroine ruined these guys? Again, I have a hard time believing that heroine is responsible for those great albums. I would argue that they would have happened *without* heroine.

[Guest Mike Lee]

SRV was at the top of his career after he cleaned up. In Step has some of his best songwriting and playing. His last live performance is regarded by his peers as one of his best.

Damn, I just realized it's been 15 years.

[wgarces]

Can any one name bands have acutally been able to get clean and put out stuff as good and creative as when they were wacked? Hmm, I'm having a hard time naming any.

Depeche Mode.

[earachemyeye]

IMHO most of what has been said here about the positive effects of heroin is just uneducated guessing by those who have never used it. Everyone here that has actually used it said it's shit ( except the author ). Everyone I know that has actually used it said it is shit. Am I missing something? As for clean artists that still make good music, what about Eric Clapton? Johnny Winter? SRV?(rest his soul)Paul Rodgers, Phil Keaggy? on and on . Man, if you can't think of anybody then maybe it's time to buy some new cd's. It would be nice to think that there is some magic pill to take to be a better musician but it just ain't so. There are too many factors (TALENT, hard work, mass marketing, producers, ect. ) that made the music that we like to single out heroin as the key. These people didn't do it all on their own. There are MANY great musicians that have NEVER used heroin. Some have never been given the chance to be popular. Check your local music scene. It's too bad that this romanticizing goes on even after all the good people we've lost to this stupid drug. I'm sure it will continue and more people will die when they fall into the trap. Carry on.

Joe

[Jorge]

Can any one name bands have acutally been able to get clean and put out stuff as good and creative as when they were wacked? Hmm, I'm having a hard time naming any.

Depeche Mode.

he he...he said "as good as", not "as BAD as..." LOL

[Slim]

Can any one name bands have acutally been able to get clean and put out stuff as good and creative as when they were wacked? Hmm, I'm having a hard time naming any.

That can easily be turned around. Is it not possible that heroine ruined these guys? Again, I have a hard time believing that heroine is responsible for those great albums. I would argue that they would have happened *without* heroine.

Whoa, Whoa...I'm basically saying that it ruined them. I'm also not advocating the use. Geez. It's just an observation I'm making that for whatever reasons, there was some good shit getting cranked out during those dark days. That's all. Please dont read into too much. Perhaps I should have said "as creative after they cleaned up as when they were doped out".

[Slim]

Can any one name bands have acutally been able to get clean and put out stuff as good and creative as when they were wacked? Hmm, I'm having a hard time naming any.

Depeche Mode.

he he...he said "as good as", not "as BAD as..." LOL

Do they play Hamers? I dont thing Hamer make sequencers, do they?

[Slim]

IMHO most of what has been said here about the positive effects of heroin is just uneducated guessing by those who have never used it. Everyone here that has actually used it said it's shit ( except the author ). Everyone I know that has actually used it said it is shit. Am I missing something? As for clean artists that still make good music, what about Eric Clapton? Johnny Winter? SRV?(rest his soul)Paul Rodgers, Phil Keaggy? on and on . Man, if you can't think of anybody then maybe it's time to buy some new cd's. It would be nice to think that there is some magic pill to take to be a better musician but it just ain't so. There are too many factors (TALENT, hard work, mass marketing, producers, ect. ) that made the music that we like to single out heroin as the key. These people didn't do it all on their own. There are MANY great musicians that have NEVER used heroin. Some have never been given the chance to be popular. Check your local music scene. It's too bad that this romanticizing goes on even after all the good people we've lost to this stupid drug. I'm sure it will continue and more people will die when they fall into the trap. Carry on.

Joe

Dude, chill a bit. I know I'm not advocating or romantisizing the use. I made an observation about a particular band, then generalized it.