Veneer help / advice sought

[Toadroller]

I'm blundering my way towards the home stretch on my first build from scratch, a maple neck-through V for my son who was ten when I started it, is now twelve...

Some posts about it on my blog here:

http://toadroller.blogspot.com/search/label/HamyV

Anyway, it's a flat top and I've been putting on a sapele pommele veneer in bookmatched halves. Thin layer of wood glue, plank and 100lbs of sand overnight to dry. The first half came out great. With the second side, I put on waaaay too much glue and it came out wavy and buckled. I think from just being too wet. I used a heat gun and chisel to strip it off, which worked better than expected. I then hung the guitar on a peg and walked away for a while.

...Nine months later...

I sanded and wood-filled the crappy side, and put in another layer of veneer with much less glue. Still a bit of waviness. I can strip and re-veneer yet again, but would prefer not to. Are there any tricks like steaming or heating that might help shrink the veneer tighter? It's significant enough that I can't sand it level, but not near so bad as the first time, which came out looking like a piece of corrugated cardboard.

Thanks

Edited to add: Don't ask why I've already painted a guitar on which the veneer hasn't been applied. There's simply no reasonable answer.

[murkat]

not tricks to do.

you will have to remove it and start over.

welcome to my world, been there done that.

Sometimes veneers work, sometimes not.

Roll the dice baby.

Heat gun and putty balde.

[Toadroller]

Blah. Any advice on the next round?

First attempt, I'm pretty sure it was too much glue. This attempt, I was cautious, erring on being too dry with the glue.

I also "clamped" with a flat board sandwich on top of the veneer and then 100lbs of sand. Now that I think about it, I'd probably get a lot more force with multiple clamps around than the sand bags. ten clamps at > 100 lbs is more than 100 lbs. Now that I think about it, I kept with the sand because it worked once. To heck with the sand. I've got a slick, steep driveway covered in snow, so it will go to a good home, mine.

[sixesandsevens]

I think you're right that actual clamping would probably work better than the sandbag trick. Admittedly, I've had virtually no hands-on building experience, just reading, daydreaming, and just now starting a first build, but still... I agree with your decision to try a bunch of clamps next time.

Edited to add: Don't ask why I've already painted a guitar on which the veneer hasn't been applied. There's simply no reasonable answer.

That seemed like the easiest question for me to answer: 10 (or 12) year old son!

Incidentally, your workshop is nicer than my kitchen.

Good luck on the build.

[Stike]

not tricks to do.

you will have to remove it and start over.

welcome to my world, been there done that.

Sometimes veneers work, sometimes not.

Roll the dice baby.

Heat gun and putty balde.

Having just recently "had some fun" with veneers yep is all I have to add.

Blah. Any advice on the next round?

First attempt, I'm pretty sure it was too much glue. This attempt, I was cautious, erring on being too dry with the glue.

I also "clamped" with a flat board sandwich on top of the veneer and then 100lbs of sand. Now that I think about it, I'd probably get a lot more force with multiple clamps around than the sand bags. ten clamps at > 100 lbs is more than 100 lbs. Now that I think about it, I kept with the sand because it worked once. To heck with the sand. I've got a slick, steep driveway covered in snow, so it will go to a good home, mine.

Clamps for sure and if you can get some pressure on the center seam that's a big help. Glue type matters too.

[Toadroller]

I think you're right that actual clamping would probably work better than the sandbag trick. Admittedly, I've had virtually no hands-on building experience, just reading, daydreaming, and just now starting a first build, but still... I agree with your decision to try a bunch of clamps next time.

Edited to add: Don't ask why I've already painted a guitar on which the veneer hasn't been applied. There's simply no reasonable answer.

That seemed like the easiest question for me to answer: 10 (or 12) year old son!

Incidentally, your workshop is nicer than my kitchen.

Good luck on the build.

If you like my kitchen-workshop, you should see my livingroom-paintbooth!

[murkat]

advise...

ohboy...

remove old, rough sand clean, denatured alc to clean, stupid thin coat of glue, let it set up tacky

veneer, same prep as above, stupid thin coat of glue apply also.

once both glue faces tacky but not wet, bow veneer lay middle to outsides, work the veneer with hands

to work it out to a flatness, bubbles out, etc.

If the veneer bows / curls upon application, glue is too wet.

Press it up once all extra glue, bubbles, etc, are worked out.

[Steve Haynie]

[JohnnyB]

advise...

ohboy...

remove old, rough sand clean, denatured alc to clean, stupid thin coat of glue, let it set up tacky

veneer, same prep as above, stupid thin coat of glue apply also.

Once both glue faces tacky but not wet, bow veneer lay middle to outsides, work the veneer with hands

to work it out to a flatness, bubbles out, etc.

If the veneer bows / curls upon application, glue is too wet.

Press it up once all extra glue, bubbles, etc, are worked out.

Wouldn't one of these help? I used one when putting new sparkle wrap on some very vintage Slingerland drums and got no bubbles. They're pretty standard for putting laminate on a kitchen counter.

[Toadroller]

Thanks for the further advice, Jay. Hadn't thought to wait for tacky.

Stike, I'll look for the glue.

JohnnyB, I've got a rolling pin! Great idea.

Due to travel, I won't be able to tackle this again til next weekend. Stay tuned.

Sixesandsevens, I was inspired by a friend who has been building a guitar for me. His inspiration was his uncle who helped him build a remote controlled airplane. He said his uncle's advice was "If you can be patient and build a good airplane, you can build anything." For the major woodwork, I signed up for the local high-school's woodworking shop and was able to leverage their jointers, planers, band-saws, etc. The rest has been hand-tools at home.

This project has been a long time coming. The mistakes are visible, but some aspects of it are fundamentally right. My boy Henry (who's really picking up his guitar fundamentals and starting to show the interest and focus an early teen can) is pretty excited.

[JohnnyB]

JohnnyB, I've got a rolling pin! Great idea.

Nah, don't use your rolling pin, get one of these available at any Home Depot, Lowes, or similar. A rolling pin is too hard, requires both hands, and isn't as maneuverable. The lamination tool has a firm rubber roller with a little bit of "give" which helps makes better surface contact with the wood underneath and push out the air that may be lurking in the grain. You can also use one hand, the longer handle gives good leverage, and the maneuverability enables you to chase the bubbles out as the lamination is setting up.

[Studio Custom]

How about contact cement?

[zenmindbeginner]

This is the best veneer glue you can get.

A good glue roller is always good.

The Veneers should be joined before they are applied. Use veneer joint tape and a little bit of glue.

Glue the substrate not the veneer and be sure to use some softener. Veneer softener will prevent it from splitting and tearing during joining and glueing.

Veneer softener will also allow the veneer to relax during the glueing process so you don't get waves... VERY important for quilted maple which is normally VERY wavy and probe to warping.

When setting weight on the veneer be VERY careful that you don't introduce "creep" where the veneer shifts on the substrate as weight is applied.

A plex-glass caul and several clamps are the best to prevent this since you can see what is going on through the plexi-glass and creep can be immediately addressed or prevented entirely with this method.

Good luck dood.

[Toadroller]

Progress:

Sandwich clamping, plus advice about tackiness of the glue, etc, did the trick.

Threw every clamp I could at it. Wish I had more of the wood clamps.

Here it is post grain-filling and pre-sanding off the grain-filling

I put up a post about it on my blog, including the hand-applied burst, which I'll cover with poly and buff out.

http://toadroller.blogspot.com/2013/03/hand-burst.html

[a.bandini]

Looking good! (Said in heavy Maine accent!)

Congrats.