Grrrrr- tuning issues!

[diablo175]

I have a beloved Cali from the harem has always been somewhat problematic with tuning, especially as result of vigorous whammying. The high E string tends to drop or raise up as much as a quarter of step. I've gone thru all the known checkpoints to trouble shoot- including changing out the damned Floyd and the nut to high quality Lockmeister. This would suggest it is not an issue that is Floyd-centric, though, it is brought on by significant*  use.

Running down my checklist, is there anything I've missed in determining the origin of the tuning issue?

Floyd and all components including nut, saddles & blocks

Floyd posts/anchors (difficult to determine whether moving)

Floyd clearance in cavities

locking nut attachment point on head stock

neck attachment at heel

spring screws

springs

strings

 

What am I missing here?

 

*- significant use includes deep dives, half step or more pull ups, and wide vibrato. Minor use like shallow vibrato, light bar depressions or taps don't seem to cause the tuning issues.

 

 

 

 

[Biz Prof]

I was going to reply with "It's the garish paint scheme", but that's really too easy. 

That's a rather comprehensive checklist to troubleshoot the problem you've described. Given that you've changed 100% of the hardware involved, this suggests potential issues with the points on the actual guitar where the hardware is fastened. How's the action at the nut feel?

[diablo175]

4 minutes ago, Biz Prof said:

I was going to reply with "It's the garish paint scheme", but that's really too easy. 

That's a rather comprehensive checklist to troubleshoot the problem you've described. Given that you've changed 100% of the hardware involved, this suggests potential issues with the points on the actual guitar where the hardware is fastened. How's the action at the nut feel?

Yeah, that'd be a stretch to suggest that the paint color has anything to do with it   The nut is both new and newly installed, by the gent who did the re-fret. Did not notice any shifting of it when I put on new strings. Action is great.

[Biz Prof]

Just curious...what brand/gauge of strings?

[diablo175]

EB Cobalt Slinkys -042- 009

[Biz Prof]

3 minutes ago, diablo175 said:

EB Cobalt Slinkys -042- 009

Might I suggest something blasphemous, such as "Try a set of _____ .009s"?

[diablo175]

Same thing happened with M Steels and the regular Super Slinkys.  I've got some Diaddario 9-42s, I can try those I guess.

 

[Jeff R]

Stupid question, but are you tightening the "E" string enough in the saddle and at the nut to withstand aggressive activity?  Considering all you've changed/address/double-checked, and considering you've said the problem is with that string alone versus all six ... you may try torquing those clamp points more. Easy enough fix attempt, and if you're worried about denting/cracking on the saddle and/or the nut and saddle clamp block(s), those are readily available and cheap when replacement time occurs.

 

[murkat]

59 minutes ago, diablo175 said:

What am I missing here?

the string is slipping either at the nut or the bridge piece.

check for indent slots from the string at each binding area.

make sure the locking nut piece for the string is pointed in the right direction.

make sure there is no broken piece of string in the locking cavity at the bridge saddle area.

check again for indents, groves on both areas mentioned.

[Victor (Fret Friend)]

Are the strings fully stretched before final set-up? How are the knife edges on the base-plate? I have nothing more and I know you already know these things...

[diablo175]

2 hours ago, Vic Croll (Concrete Sox) said:

Are the strings fully stretched before final set-up? How are the knife edges on the base-plate? I have nothing more and I know you already know these things...

New Lockmeister- edges are pristine as are the posts and all the hardware. Strings were fully stretched but my knowledge of the strings suggests that it wouldn't change pitch up and down due to stretching.

 

[diablo175]

4 hours ago, Jeff R said:

Stupid question, but are you tightening the "E" string enough in the saddle and at the nut to withstand aggressive activity?  Considering all you've changed/address/double-checked, and considering you've said the problem is with that string alone versus all six ... you may try torquing those clamp points more. Easy enough fix attempt, and if you're worried about denting/cracking on the saddle and/or the nut and saddle clamp block(s), those are readily available and cheap when replacement time occurs.

 

I'll double check but I'm reasonably sure I've got that sucker grabbed and clamped pretty well. Again, it doesn't quite explain why it drops and raises in pitch.

[cynic]

If it's the only string and it's changing pitch in both directions, maybe you're rubbing your grubs across the fine tuner as you're playing.

[DBraz]

A wondering nut or moving anchors in the body would be my first go to places - especially given the bar abuse.

As you have checked these already I am a bit at a loss...

Best of luck matey!

[diablo175]

34 minutes ago, cynic said:

If it's the only string and it's changing pitch in both directions, maybe you're rubbing your grubs across the fine tuner as you're playing.

Negative on that. If that were the case, it'd be happening on all my fine tuner-equipped guitars, which is to say, all of my guitars 

However, I know for fact my right hand position is such that it doesn't come into contact with the fine tuners.

[Jeff R]

59 minutes ago, diablo175 said:

I'll double check but I'm reasonably sure I've got that sucker grabbed and clamped pretty well. Again, it doesn't quite explain why it drops and raises in pitch.

Drops in pitch - more likely sluggish clamping at the saddle versus at the nut.

Raises in pitch - more likely sluggish clamping at the nut versus at the saddle.

Both - you don't know how to adequately torque an Allen screw on either end relative to what you're asking the guitar and trem system to perform (or more accurately, endure) LOL.  I know you're read, like I have many times, that Vai has to re-Edge "Evo" entirely pretty frequently due to the abuse to which it's exposed. That's not only the thrashing playing style, it's also the excessive torque they system endures to enable that shit.

Seriously, if the parts aren't "new" new or over-hardened big block titanium lockamundo yada yada, you definitely need to also check for the indenting on string contact surfaces at the nut and saddle to which Murkat Jay refers. I don't know how long it takes for those grooves to surface, but it's not that long. You can sometimes turn nut clamp pads sideways/perpendicular to quickly get an ungrooved pad surface, but if it's already grooved nicely the burring around the grooves can cut plain strings when you go to clamp it down. Nuts groove too but all you can really do there outside of replacement is filing away burrs.

On the saddle side, I've bought time on dented saddle innards by clamping the string(s) somewhat askew of center, to "find" a fresh clamping surface within. Make sure your clamp blocks aren't cracked as well - I've seen them crumble-crack from the bottom with no visual signs on the top side.

 

 

 

[diablo175]

Starting think the trem posts are the issue. I re-rechecked everything, including checking the nut screws bolting it to the neck, checking the string clamps, re-setting the string in the saddles, checking the saddle screws, even checking the neck attachment and while there's a little more play in there than I would have expected, I didn't see that as being the cause of the tuning issues. 
As I worked the bar up and down to determine any impinging, I noted that dumping it, left the pitch of the string(s) raised, and conversely,  pulling it sharp returned it to pitch or even lowered it. Starts to point to the posts never having been properly seated, spacing-wise. Not sure I have the necessary tools to accurately measure to determine proper spacing and angle to body. What I DO know, based on the f*cking fiasco I went thru with my custom orderCali, is that the posts have to be dead-on accurate in lateral spacing and perpendicular to body or the whole system will be bollocks-ed.

[carfish7]

If the nut is the kind that does NOT bolt through the neck (only screwed into the neck from the top) you need to look VERY closely at what happens at the nut when you drop tension and pull up. I had this issue on my Centablo and the movement is so subtle you can barely see it and may NEVER see it without full string tension applied.

[cynic]

You could swap necks with one of your other Cali's to at least pin-point which end is the culprit.  If it follows the neck it's the nut, if not it's the trem.