Wraptail Posts Mislocated

[Michael_B]

Has anyone else run into a problem with the wraptail posts on a Hamer being drilled ~3/16" too far forward, to properly intonate?  It seems I've run into it, at least, twice- out of three wraptail Hamers.

If so, how have you addressed it?  I recently bought a GFS "Bad-ass" intonatable wrap-tail bridge.  I still needed to buy M3 screws that were longer than those that came stock.

[crunchee]

What string gauges are you using on those guitars now, and would changing string gauges help?  Just a thought.

[kizanski]

Forward, as in, toward the pickups?

[Michael_B]

1 hour ago, crunchee said:

What string gauges are you using on those guitars now, and would changing string gauges help?  Just a thought.

It arrived to me with 9s, and I re-strung it with 10s.

2 minutes ago, kizanski said:

Forward, as in, toward the pickups?

Yes.  That'd have been a clearer description.

[kizanski]

A longer Allen screw wouldn't fix that?

[Michael_B]

1 hour ago, kizanski said:

A longer Allen screw wouldn't fix that?

It was so far forward, that simply using a longer screw would cause the prongs of the original bridge to no longer engage the posts.

[kizanski]

8 minutes ago, Michael_B said:

It was so far forward, that simply using a longer screw would cause the prongs of the original bridge to no longer engage the posts.

I'm not sure what you mean, but once the allen/adjustment screw is touching the post, the bridge technically isn't anymore.
From there, it's just a question of how far away the bridge is from the post, but the contact is being made by the screw.
Unless you're concerned that the bridge will just fall completely off the post, hurling toward the nut.

I've never seen or heard of this issue before that the bridge would be that far off, especially with .010's.

Something is wrong, either with the equipment or the method with with you are tryin to intonate this guitar.

Which side of the bridge (wound or plain string side) is it too close?

 

[Michael_B]

4 hours ago, kizanski said:

I'm not sure what you mean, but once the allen/adjustment screw is touching the post, the bridge technically isn't anymore.
From there, it's just a question of how far away the bridge is from the post, but the contact is being made by the screw.
Unless you're concerned that the bridge will just fall completely off the post, hurling toward the nut.

I've never seen or heard of this issue before that the bridge would be that far off, especially with .010's.

Something is wrong, either with the equipment or the method with with you are tryin to intonate this guitar.

Which side of the bridge (wound or plain string side) is it too close?

 

I'm concerned the bridge will come completely off, hurling towards the nut. 

Here's a pic of the GFS Bad Ass bridge, with after-market screws long enough to intonate the guitar.  The screws are set to a depth to push the 6th str. saddle ~4.3mm back from the post.  If the stock bridge were similarly set back from the post, there'd be very little engagement... too little for my comfort.

I can't figure out the math to calculate the amount of engagement, so I'll go to ACE to buy some replacement set screws for the stock bridge and share some pics.

[kizanski]

On 10/21/2017 at 6:41 PM, Michael_B said:

It seems I've run into it, at least, twice- out of three wraptail Hamers.

Something's wrong.  This simply can not be.  

I've had - probably - 6 or 7 wraptail Hamers and have never had this problem.  

If anything, since the posts are drilled parallel, the plain string side of the bridge is too far away from the pickups.  

When I replace the terrible Wilkinson wrapper with a non-intonatable bar wrapper, I have to remove some meat (about 1/4") from that side of the bridge so that it will mount more toward the pickups.  No adjustment screws needed.  

Have you had this checked professionally? 

Maybe try the old fashioned method of measuring with a rule, so that the distance from the face of the nut to the harmonic on the 12th fret is equal to the distance from that spot to the center of the bridge, to get in the ballpark.  From there you can use an electronic tuner to fine tune.  

[gorch]

Have you measured against another guitar and see where it differs?

[kizanski]

27 minutes ago, gorch said:

Have you measured against another guitar and see where it differs?

See, that's my point. It won't differ.
Aside from string gauge and bridge height, there are no variables here. This is the reason Hamer went to CNC machining - Consistency.

When I said that I had to remove material from the area where the bridge meets the post when using a bar style wrapper, I meant every time. Because the posts are, without variation, drilled in exactly the same spot.

I've had this discussion before - even with professionals. This isn't opinion. It's Math.

But back to the intonation issue.

It's been my experience, when trying to intonate with my ersatz Korg tuner that if you pass the "sweet spot" of where the saddle is supposed to sit, you can go too far, and harmonics will give a false read, making you think that you're approaching the correct placement, even though you're moving farther away from it.
At that point, I go back to the rule method.
 

[gorch]

4 hours ago, kizanski said:

It's Math.

Exactly!

[Michael_B]

I don't know what's going on, guys... the problem with intonation seems to come and go.  My brain's been fried during a pretty rough year, and I honestly have a hard time thinking straight, so it's probably me.

This AM, I bought longer set screws for the original bridge, and reinstalled it with fresh strings.  Now, the guitar intonates fine without backing out the bridge by a ridiculous length.

I'm still puzzled by how the GFS Bad Ass bridge also intonated the guitar, while being backed out so far.  I understand the bridges have different dimensions, but the GFS's dimensions suggested that it'd have to be backed out less than the stock bridge.

Just reviewing some history, when I got the guitar, it wouldn't intonate.  HFC recommended changing strings, and the problem seemed resolved.  The next day, the problem was back.  I figured my brain's fried and that it hadn't actually been resolved, in the first place. 

A couple of months ago, I took the guitar to a well-respected, local tech.  After he measured the length, repeatedly, he shared the observation, and his surprise, that the posts were too close to the nut.  As it happens, I had gotten identical feedback on a second wraptail Hamer, from a fancy guitar tech to the stars.  So, I was primed to believe that this Studio had the same problem.  

Regardless, right now, the intonation problem with the original bridge seems to have gone away... for now.  Maybe, it was a unlikely series of problem strings?  All three seets that I put on were from the same 10-pack of EXL110.

I appreciate the advice and help from you guys.  Thanks.

[Steve Haynie]

As the screws push the bridge away from the posts it is possible the angle of the bridge within the posts could change slightly.  There is a little bit of tolerance in the posts for the parts to fit together. 

[tbonesullivan]

How worn is the nut? If there are intonation issues with the bridge,sometimes it can be from the nut slots being worn, and the string making contact farther back in the slot than it should.

[stobro]

I'm not sure what method you're using to check the intonation. I always check two notes on the same string an octave apart, for example fretting at the 5th fret and the 17th. I have a Peterson VS II Virtual Strobe tuner and it works quite well, especially when I have the bridge pickup on with the tone rolled all the way down to suppress the high harmonics. I've discovered that I have to be very careful to keep the fretting pressure consistent and to try to avoid pulling or pushing the string toward or away from the bridge. Otherwise, what I think is a bad set up is really just my sloppy playing!

[Jeff R]

May not apply here, but pickups set on the high side of things can affect natural string vibration, sustain, harmonics, etc., and subsequently freak out strobe readings. Wouldn't hurt to lower the pickups into the body some just to see how that affects the readings your strobe is producing, particularly if you're getting somewhat erratic and jumpy readings from the strobe as she sits now.

[Michael_B]

The guitar is staying intonated.  My best guess is an improbable series of bad string sets.  I still don't know what to make of the guitar tech's measurements. 

17 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

How worn is the nut? If there are intonation issues with the bridge,sometimes it can be from the nut slots being worn, and the string making contact farther back in the slot than it should.

The nut looks very good.  The guitar looked barely played.

17 hours ago, stobro said:

I'm not sure what method you're using to check the intonation. I always check two notes on the same string an octave apart, for example fretting at the 5th fret and the 17th. I have a Peterson VS II Virtual Strobe tuner and it works quite well, especially when I have the bridge pickup on with the tone rolled all the way down to suppress the high harmonics. I've discovered that I have to be very careful to keep the fretting pressure consistent and to try to avoid pulling or pushing the string toward or away from the bridge. Otherwise, what I think is a bad set up is really just my sloppy playing!

I was simply checking 12th fret harmonic against a fretted 12th fret note.