pesocaster Posted March 10, 2006 Posted March 10, 2006 So last night I needed to restring the PesoPro..... and since this is the 6th or 7th set of strings to go on this I thought I'd try the wrap over the stop bar trick (Ala Billy Gibbons) for the hell of it....... First off FYI... need to add a 2nd ball end on the string so it doesn't break at the end of the wraps.... I really didn't think this would make much difference ... seeing that the bridge system is tone pros..... well low and behold was I wrong....... Buy doing this it eliminated all of the "new guitar stiffness" .... the guitar is alive and the strings seem to have more "stretch" in them..... Like some of my "other" 25 1/2 scale guitars... The overall benefit... the tone of the .11's with the stretch of 10 1/2's... perfect balance... The biggest benefit was in playability... and I certainly didn't notice anything lacking in tone... at all... I know some of you will argue this and that pro and con.... bla bla bla.... Just try it... all it will cost you is a set of strings and 15 min... And if you are not blown away like I am... well then you are out a set of strings and the time it takes you to swap them .... Hey good enough for Billy Gibbons.......
MCChris Posted March 10, 2006 Posted March 10, 2006 First off FYI... need to add a 2nd ball end on the string so it doesn't break at the end of the wraps.... Huh?
pesocaster Posted March 10, 2006 Author Posted March 10, 2006 First off FYI... need to add a 2nd ball end on the string so it doesn't break at the end of the wraps.... Huh? when you string the stop bar backwards then bring the string back over the top of the stop bar .... If you don't add a second ball / string end, the string will bend at the end of the string wraps at the ball end... and break your string.... take the ball off the string you just took off the guitar and thread it on the new string... using it like a spacer.... broke a couple strings last night bringing them to tension....
Jeff R Posted March 10, 2006 Posted March 10, 2006 Instead of doing the wraparound job (the strings divot and chip the chrome plating BTW), I'd get brass washers from my local hardware store for the studs. I forget the dimensions of the washers, but the inside hole was about the size of the threaded part of the stud and the outside circumference was small enough so that the washer was concealed from view from the top of the bar.By using the washers, I could raise the bar to decrease the angle over the TOM and get that slinkier field Peso's talking accurately about (in addition to reducing string breakage). But at the same time, I could still "tighten" the studs inside the sleeves which I think enhances sustain and tone.I recently sold my Special FM to Frankie II and it has my little washer mod. Maybe Frank will take a photo or two for us and get the measurements on the brass washers when the guitar gets to his house next week.
mfreyer Posted March 10, 2006 Posted March 10, 2006 I've always done this on my Artist Mahogany. Although the difference in actual string tension/freedom of movement is probably pretty small, I also prefer the feel. I have never used an extra ball end, and have far fewer problems with string breakage than when I used to string the standard way.
thecajunboy Posted March 10, 2006 Posted March 10, 2006 I've read that suggestion for bass guitars also Peso.
kizanski Posted March 10, 2006 Posted March 10, 2006 I know some of you will argue this and that pro and con.... bla bla bla.... Just try it... all it will cost you is a set of strings and 15 min... And if you are not blown away like I am... well then you are out a set of strings and the time it takes you to swap them .... Hey good enough for Billy Gibbons....... That's a bunch of hooey, and it WILL cost you more than a set of strings once you realize that there's no difference and you've scratched the ever-lovin' shit out of your stop tail.Billy Gibbons is a great player, but he's also a bit of a horse rectum.Peso, you surprise me.
JohnnyB Posted March 10, 2006 Posted March 10, 2006 There's no doubt that it adds playabilityby adding some total string length and dramatically changing the break angle over the saddles. When I tried it a few years ago on an Epi Les Paul, I noticed a drop-off in bass response, but I think this depends on the guitar itself. With the bigger one-piece mahogany body, chambers, Tone Pros, and longer string length, the PesoPro has several features to keep the bass response intact while benefitting from the advantages of the top wrap.When I used to wrap over the top, I used Gibson Les Paul strings which have silk or some soft cloth material wrapped around the ball end of the strings. This keeps the string from buzzing against the stop bar. I didn't have a string breakage problem, but then, I was (am) just a living room wanker and wasn't playing very hard.
clmazza Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 I've been doing it for years on my Lesters.... No ill effects.
Luke Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 Why not just raise the stop bar via the adjustment screws if you want less downward angle? The only argument I can forsee is next you will say that by having the stop bar crancked down to the body it adds sustain, the all parts being inter-connected theory. I personally never bought into that idea and I know of no guitar company shipping guitars with the stop piece at the lowest possible setting. I would just say, ask yourself why the companies that manufacture the instruments do not adhere to these ideas if they create superior results.
kizanski Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 Why not just raise the stop bar via the adjustment screws if you want less downward angle? The only argument I can forsee is next you will say that by having the stop bar crancked down to the body it adds sustain, the all parts being inter-connected theory. I personally never bought into that idea and I know of no guitar company shipping guitars with the stop piece at the lowest possible setting. I would just say, ask yourself why the companies that manufacture the instruments do not adhere to these ideas if they create superior results.THANK YOU!Raise the friggin' Stop Tail!By the way, even if you raise it off the body, they're still connected!
hamerhead Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 I made up some washers like Jeff R was talking about, and it works pretty well. Mine are turned to the diameter of the anchor on one end, and the other end is opened up enough so the bottom of the stud (the part that the tailpiece actually sits on) fits inside.When you tighten the studs down, it removes the play between the studs and tailpiece, and locks the tailpiece to the guitar, but keeps it high enough to clear the back of the bridge. You don't get the extra string length, but I think it works OK.I always thought the one problem with TonePros is they didn't address the slop in the threads between the stud and the anchor. This does that by allowing you to actually snug the studs down.And that's why: SUSTAIN BLOCKS RULE!!
pesocaster Posted March 12, 2006 Author Posted March 12, 2006 alright alright......... I'm not a closed minded guy... the Washer idea makes good sense to me ... and I think the play in the threads did have an effect when I had the bar that high.... this would address THAT issue.... and I'll give that a whirl next string change...... I do think the extra string length has something to do with it... but I'll give it a shot..... So back off Kiz!!!! SMN! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
JohnnyB Posted March 12, 2006 Posted March 12, 2006 I do think the extra string length has something to do with it... but I'll give it a shot..... Yes it does. Although the vibrating string length stays the same (nut to saddle), stringing over the top of the bar lengthens the overall string length, lowering the tension on the bridge, and adds overtones between the bridge and stop tail. This results in the easier playability and changes the overtone structure, which may improve the musicality or not. Your experience tells you it improved it. Trust your ears; you're the one playing it and hearing it.The break angle and what happens between the bridge and string termination has a lot to do with how various piano manufacturers voice their pianos. Pianos with a gentle break angle and tuned bridge-to-termination segments are known for overtone-rich, singing tone. Most European pianos (and the Japanese ones that copy them) terminate the string sharply and some mfrs. further dampen the behind-the-bridge section, which results in stronger fundamentals and a simpler, more direct tone. The more-overtones approach offers more opportunity in harmonics in hi-gain/overdrive settings, which may partly explain why Billy Gibbons can play those pinch harmonics the way he does.
Luke Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 Yes it does. Although the vibrating string length stays the same (nut to saddle), stringing over the top of the bar lengthens the overall string length, lowering the tension on the bridgeI'll tell you why I think this idea is a myth. If you look on the back of a set of D'Addarrio stings it tells you the tension at pitch for each string. Using a set of 9-42, the tension numbers are:Low E 14.8 thickness .042A 15.8 thickness .032D 15.8 thickness .024G 14.7 thickness .016B 11.0 thickness .011High E 13.1 thickness .009The chart assumes a 25.5" scale length. Using your theory, a Stratocaster's tension should increase from Low E to High E as each successive string is longer than the next. The High E string is 2" longer than the Low E string. I am sure your answer to this is the fact the gauges get smaller as the pitch goes higher.Now what if we placed the same string set on a Superpro, still 25.5" scale length, but now 3 per side headstock. Your theory would require the longest strings the D & G should play the softest. Since the D'Addario tension chart makes no reference to the 6 in-line vesus 3 per side headstock issue, I took the idea a step further. I have never seen an acoustic guitar that has a 6 in-line tuner arrangment, so I then used the same guages of bronze acoustic strings to compare.Low E 18.8 thickness .042A 17.1 thickness .032D 16.9 thickness .024G 14.7 thickness .016B 11.0 thickness .011High E 13.1 thickness .009They do not make a .016 wound G and the B & High E would be the same.As we can see, the Low E has the highest tension, almost 2 lbs more, yet it is surely shorter on a 3 per side headstock. For your theory to be valid the D string should have the lowest tension.I look at it from a string bending point of view. Is it easier to bend the D string or the B string? I say the B string, and thus the softest theory for the middle fails right there.
JohnnyB Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 Why not just raise the stop bar via the adjustment screws if you want less downward angle? He doesn't necessarily want less downward angle, he wants to dial in a sound and playability he likes better. Stringing over the top of the bar gave him what he wanted both in tone and playability. The physics behind that change involve string angle and total string length, and possibly other factors more difficult to identify. Changing stop bar height alone only deals with one variable instead of two, and wouldn't necessarily give him what he wanted. Also, to change stop bar height you really need the special tool for it if you don't want to munge up the slotted studs with a garden-variety screwdriver. Why go to all that trouble to change ONE variable when you can change two just by stringing over the top?
kizanski Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 Also, to change stop bar height you really need the special tool for it if you don't want to munge up the slotted studs with a garden-variety screwdriver. Why go to all that trouble to change ONE variable when you can change two just by stringing over the top? You're worrid about the posts but not the stop bar itself?
JohnnyB Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 Yes it does. Although the vibrating string length stays the same (nut to saddle), stringing over the top of the bar lengthens the overall string length, lowering the tension on the bridgeI'll tell you why I think this idea is a myth. If you look on the back of a set of D'Addarrio stings it tells you the tension at pitch for each string. Using a set of 9-42, the tension numbers are:Low E 14.8 thickness .042A 15.8 thickness .032D 15.8 thickness .024G 14.7 thickness .016B 11.0 thickness .011High E 13.1 thickness .009<Yada-Yada>I look at it from a string bending point of view. Is it easier to bend the D string or the B string? I say the B string, and thus the softest theory for the middle fails right there.You're sure using a lot of brain cycles to try to convince somebody not to put the strings over the stop bar. He did it, he liked it, and was nice enough to share his experience with us.
Luke Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 Also, to change stop bar height you really need the special tool for it if you don't want to munge up the slotted studs with a garden-variety screwdriver. I use a piece of masking tape over the screwdriver tip to prevent scratching.
JohnnyB Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 You're worrid about the posts but not the stop bar itself?I'm not worried about any of it, Kiz, but apparently you and Luke are having conniptions over <GASP!> threading strings over the top of a stop bar.Some people won't risk scratching the stop bar, and some won't care.
Luke Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 You're sure using a lot of brain cycles to try to convince somebody not to put the strings over the stop bar. He did it, he liked it, and was nice enough to share his experience with us. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I am trying to understand the benefit.
kizanski Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 You're worrid about the posts but not the stop bar itself?I'm not worried about any of it, Kiz, but apparently you and Luke are having conniptions over <GASP!> threading strings over the top of a stop bar.Some people won't risk scratching the stop bar, and some won't care. I've just bought too many guitars with scratched up tail pieces because some Billy Gibbons Wannabe Dweeb thought he would capture "The Tone" by stringing over the stop tail, only to find that they scratched the shit out of it and they still can't play La Grange.The "advantage" of stringing over the top is a myth like the Yeti or National Healthcare.
Rockola Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 Bah to the naysayers... If'n you dig it, do it. It certainly has "the look".
Guest pirateflynn Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 How much is a tail piece?I say, go for it. Try a few new things, you never know what you'll come across. Even if it's just inspiration, it's worth it.
RobB Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 I've just bought too many guitars with scratched up tail pieces because some Billy Gibbons Wannabe Dweeb thought he would capture "The Tone" by stringing over the stop tail, only to find that they scratched the shit out of it and they still can't play La Grange.Yeah, especially since BG (according to the liner notes for "Tres H's") used an old Strat on that tune.Dunno, the solo sure sounds like an LP. That, or the biggest Strat in the world? Meaningless, knowing what a BSartist Gibbons can be...
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