Home Audio system Subwoofers

jwhitcomb3 · December 16, 2013

I have been using a pair of KEF tower speakers for years as both my home stereo and TV speakers. A couple years ago I replaced my Carver stereo receiver with a low priced Onkyo home theater receiver, and I have noticed that the bass response from my KEF's seems to have evaporated. I tried rewiring the KEF's as biamped from the Onkyo, and while that added some definition to the sound, it still lacks any thump.

The Onkyo doesn't have many of the features I used to take for granted on a stereo receiver: tone controls, a loud button for low volume listening, or even a balance knob. The Onkyo manual recommends using a subwoofer with stereo speakers. So I wonder if the Onkyo high-passes the front speakers...but since I've told the config there is no subwoofer, I would think that should allow full bandwidth to the front speakers.

Anyway, I want full range sound. Should I ditch the Onkyo? Or should I look for a subwoofer? I still love the KEFs.

A brief listening session at Best Buy of Polk Audio, Klipsh and Sony subs left me unimpressed, but I'm guessing that's because these demo systems are configured to rattle your fillings, not produce listenable music. The Sony sounded like there was a delay behind the high frequency program.

Any advice on a decent modestly priced powered subwoofer would be appreciated. I'm looking mostly to enhance listening to music (jazz, alternative rock, classical) at low to moderate volume levels, and I want balanced sound, not to shake the walls. Small size would be good too.

Thanks,

Jonathan

JohnnyThunders · December 16, 2013

I've had a small Definive Technolgies sub in my Homee theater for 13 years, still sounding good, it's a small one and not a wall rattler, sounds good with music and movies. Sandy Gross started Polk, then Definitive Technolgies and now Golden Ear. Maybe check out Golden ear. Great guy and x-60's pro slot racer, used to beat me everytime I raced him.

Thundersteel · December 16, 2013

A brief listening session at Best Buy of Polk Audio, Klipsh and Sony subs left me unimpressed

Big box stores usually don't carry what I consider audiophile-grade speakers. I'd check either Crutchfield, or you can build your own at Parts Express.com.

Armitage · December 16, 2013

_{_{While I'd never buy a regular speaker without a serious sit down, there are some fantastic subs being sold by internet companies, lots of bang for the buck.}}

_{_{http://www.hsuresearch.com/index.html}}

_{_{http://www.svsound.com/}}

_{_{http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products.html}}

_{_{http://www.seatonsound.net/ Seaton Submersive HP+ (2400 RMS! Not Peak! Yeah Baby!).This is what I'm looking to add.}}

jwhitcomb3 · December 17, 2013

Thanks for the advice! A Definitive Technolgies sub has caught my eye (and hopefully my ear).

JohnnyB · December 17, 2013

You were happy with the sound before, and then after you changed one item--the receiver--the bass went away. The scientific method would say that the root of your problem is the receiver. In particular, low cost AV receivers are lame. Too many bells & whistles, too many circuits jammed onto one chassis, not enough power supply to provide steady voltage into reactive loads (speakers) nor damping factor to control the woofers (that's probably where your bass went). I just checked out a typical AV receiver; it claims 65 watts x 5 channels (325 watts total) yet weighs 16.8 lbs. Unless it's a fairly sophisticated Class D amp (it's not) it only has enough power supply to satisfy FTC power ratings measured into an 8-ohm resistor, one channel at a time. This scenario is not typical of driving 5 channels simultaneously into fluctuating loads. Consider getting a respectable mid-priced integrated 2-channel amp such as an NAD 356BEE or Marantz PM-8004, the latter having very usable 3-band EQ.

I have a few questions:

With your Carver receiver, did you use bass boost and the loudness control to flesh out the KEF's bass? In other words, did the KEFs always rely on EQ to sound balanced?
What is the model number of your new Onkyo receiver? Is it this one?
Have you checked all the Onkyo's configuration and setup menus to see if there is a way to boost the bass? Many HT receivers have menus that only show up on the connected TV, where you use the remote control to boost or cut frequencies. My AV processor has that. It runs an automatic EQ, but afterwards I can manually override the EQ settings from the menu. I notice that at least some of the Onkyos only display these features via HDMI. Do you have an HDMI link between the Onkyo and your TV? If not, that may be why you can't shape or override the EQ and speaker assignments.
If you get a sub, what's your price range?

For a list of subs of all price ranges and configurations, combined with reviews, connectivity info, and frequency response info (much of it in graphs), go to here at SoundandVision.com. SoundandVision merged with HomeTheater magazine, so their review database is pretty comprehensive. For good subs at good prices, Bill's list of ID vendors (SVS, Rythmik, etc.) is a good one. You'll find encouraging reviews of their products on the link in this paragraph. Most of them have at a minimum free shipping and an evaluation/return period. SVS's is particularly generous--free shipping, 45-day evaluation/return period, and free return shipping. You'll find

The DefTechs are evidently good too. Check out the Definitive Technology SuperCube 4000 review. Compact and pretty impressive--a very flat response from 30-80Hz. Many just provide a steep resonant spike; the DefTech 4000's response curve is flat and extended.

Also, JohnnyThunders is spot-on about Sandy Gross's track record, both with speakers and with subs. Ten years ago most <$1K powered subs were crap. Now there are a lot of good ones. His current GoldenEar subs are also good. Before you buy a sub, study the I/Os on the back panels of your electronics and the sub to make sure you can make the connections you need.

jwhitcomb3 · December 18, 2013

You were happy with the sound before, and then after you changed one item--the receiver--the bass went away. The scientific method would say that the root of your problem is the receiver. In particular, low cost AV receivers are lame. Too many bells & whistles, too many circuits jammed onto one chassis, not enough power supply to provide steady voltage into reactive loads (speakers) nor damping factor to control the woofers (that's probably where your bass went). I just checked out a typical AV receiver; it claims 65 watts x 5 channels (325 watts total) yet weighs 16.8 lbs. Unless it's a fairly sophisticated Class D amp (it's not) it only has enough power supply to satisfy FTC power ratings measured into an 8-ohm resistor, one channel at a time. This scenario is not typical of driving 5 channels simultaneously into fluctuating loads. Consider getting a respectable mid-priced integrated 2-channel amp such as an NAD 356BEE or Marantz PM-8004, the latter having very usable 3-band EQ.
I have a few questions:
With your Carver receiver, did you use bass boost and the loudness control to flesh out the KEF's bass? In other words, did the KEFs always rely on EQ to sound balanced?
What is the model number of your new Onkyo receiver? Is it this one?
Have you checked all the Onkyo's configuration and setup menus to see if there is a way to boost the bass? Many HT receivers have menus that only show up on the connected TV, where you use the remote control to boost or cut frequencies. My AV processor has that. It runs an automatic EQ, but afterwards I can manually override the EQ settings from the menu. I notice that at least some of the Onkyos only display these features via HDMI. Do you have an HDMI link between the Onkyo and your TV? If not, that may be why you can't shape or override the EQ and speaker assignments.
If you get a sub, what's your price range?
For a list of subs of all price ranges and configurations, combined with reviews, connectivity info, and frequency response info (much of it in graphs), go to here at SoundandVision.com. SoundandVision merged with HomeTheater magazine, so their review database is pretty comprehensive. For good subs at good prices, Bill's list of ID vendors (SVS, Rythmik, etc.) is a good one. You'll find encouraging reviews of their products on the link in this paragraph. Most of them have at a minimum free shipping and an evaluation/return period. SVS's is particularly generous--free shipping, 45-day evaluation/return period, and free return shipping. You'll find
The DefTechs are evidently good too. Check out the Definitive Technology SuperCube 4000 review. Compact and pretty impressive--a very flat response from 30-80Hz. Many just provide a steep resonant spike; the DefTech 4000's response curve is flat and extended.
Also, JohnnyThunders is spot-on about Sandy Gross's track record, both with speakers and with subs. Ten years ago most <$1K powered subs were crap. Now there are a lot of good ones. His current GoldenEar subs are also good. Before you buy a sub, study the I/Os on the back panels of your electronics and the sub to make sure you can make the connections you need.

Hi Johnny,

Thanks for your response.

You may be right, it could be the receiver. Problem is, I didn't notice the drop in bass right away when I swapped out the receiver three years back (I was mostly listening to TV, not musical content, so wasn't giving the audio quality a critical listen), and the KEFs are 20 years old, so it could be the speakers have gone wonky since then.

To answer your questions, I usually kept the EQ controls on the Carver flat, although I did employ the "sonic hologram" circuit.

The Onkyo is the HT-RC260 7.2-Channel Home Theater Receiver. It is a pain in the ass to configure, and the audio/video sync isn't wonderful. But it mostly works.

I dug through the Onkyo manual and on screen menus (TV via HDMI), and did not find a way to adjust the EQ.

I don't have much money to spend on a sub for this system. We use it 95% for watching TV at a low volume level, but I do like to listen to music on it from time to time, as this system has the Oppo DVD player which is my only device that will play my DVD-Audio and SACDs, so a more balanced sound is desirable. Since my only serious complaint is the lack of low end, adding a sub seems much less money and hassle than upgrading the AV receiver. Ideally I'd like to keep the sub under $500, which I realize is a low ceiling, but then, I don't need much volume, so a decent low power sub would suffice.

I ordered a factory reconditioned Definitive Technologies ProSub 60 for very low $, and am hoping it will be an improvement.

prototype-fan · December 18, 2013

Check out Aperion Audio. I bought some speakers (including a subwoofer) from them several years ago and have been quite happy.

Armitage · December 18, 2013

The Onkyo HT-RC260 is pretty low end for Onkyo and will never compete with a Carver for current/output. Have you tried setting up the Audyssey room equalization?

LordOfTheThighs · December 18, 2013

I've only owned 2subs.

A JBL sub that was THE biggest POS of stereo equipment, I've ever owned. But I love the rest my JBL speakers.

The POS JBL was replaced with a Velodyne VRP sub. I've been way beyond satisfied with it, for the past 10(?) years.

JohnnyB · December 18, 2013

Do your KEFs have foam or butyl (or other) surrounds on the woofers? Generally speakers as well-designed and built as KEFs should still be OK. I have some 15-year-old Mirages that still anchor my HT setup and they still sound excellent, whether as anchors for surround or acting as a stereo pair. They have cast baskets and butyl surrounds, which helps.

If the KEFs have foam surrounds, however, they could be rotting out and that would diminish the bass. Refoaming is generally fairly simple and inexpensive.

JohnnyB · December 24, 2013

I was looking at your AV receiver's owner's manual, and it looks like page 33 shows how to assign frequency ranges to speakers and (I think) boost or cut frequencies. Until you get your sub, you definitely want it configured with no sub or it'll high-pass your KEFs. You can't see what you're doing with this unless the AV receiver is connected to your TV via HDMI.

jwhitcomb3 · December 26, 2013

Very nice of you to look into that, Johnny. I had the receiver configured for no sub, but after reading your post I tried toggling it to see if I could hear a difference in the main speaker sound. I heard none. Dummy button? Defective receiver? Dunno. The sub should arrive today, so hopefully all will be well. I'll post a report when it's up an running.

jwhitcomb3 · December 26, 2013

The Onkyo HT-RC260 is pretty low end for Onkyo and will never compete with a Carver for current/output. Have you tried setting up the Audyssey room equalization?

Sorry I didn't respond to this before. No, I didn't use the Audyssey room EQ. I skipped that step because I was just trying to get basic audio/video connections working, and that turned out to be surprisingly complicated. I think I still have the mic somewhere, so I'll try the auto-config when the sub gets here.

jwhitcomb3 · December 28, 2013

The sub arrived yesterday and it makes a huge amount of difference. I had to monkey with the crossover point, and it actually sounds best when there is a small overlap in the assigned frequencies between the sub (100 Hz) and the mains (80 Hz), which I'm guessing is because the rolloff on the crossover isn't very precise. I'm still monkeying with it, and once the sub seemed to shut itself off mid-song, but I can tell I'm on the right track with this. Thanks for all who offered suggestions.

JohnnyB · December 31, 2013

The sub arrived yesterday and it makes a huge amount of difference. I had to monkey with the crossover point, and it actually sounds best when there is a small overlap in the assigned frequencies between the sub (100 Hz) and the mains (80 Hz), which I'm guessing is because the rolloff on the crossover isn't very precise. I'm still monkeying with it, and once the sub seemed to shut itself off mid-song, but I can tell I'm on the right track with this. Thanks for all who offered suggestions.

It could be that the two rolloffs are different slopes. E.g., one at 24 dB/octave and the other at 12. It could also be that the KEFs are starting to roll off even higher. IME there are speakers that claim linearity to 40 Hz that are actually starting to roll off at 100 Hz and the mfr is relying on room boundary reinforcement to make up the difference. And that, of course, varies from room to room and how/where the speakers are situated and located.

For blending subs--while you have to start with what seems to make sense--be prepared to abandon preconceived notions for what sounds best.

Stereophile now has three Test CDs. I have the first one, which I always use for blending subwoofers. It includes a series of 12 test tones that warble at 1/3 octave (much less likely to blow a speaker than straight sine waves) centering on these frequencies: 1kHz, 200Hz, 160Hz, 125Hz, 100Hz, 80Hz, 63Hz, 50Hz, 40Hz, 31.5Hz, 25Hz, and 20Hz.

To get more precise, you could get an SPL meter from Rat Shack to precisely measure amplitude variations, but I do it by ear, listening for bumps and dips as the bass drops in frequency. I try to get as much linear bass extension as I can without mucking up the rest of the sound. Once you dial it in from the test CD, consider that a starting point. The real test will be how music sounds with it. Sometimes the crossover point needs to be lowered to avoid thickening the sound at the wrong place, and some recordings are EQ'd differently from others, requiring a boost or cut at the sub's volume.

jwhitcomb3 · December 31, 2013

Thanks for the tips. I am really enjoying the sound of the system. I am noticing a huge difference in the bass content of music from the different decades. I adjusted the sub while listening to music from the 1960's through 80's, which sounds full and balanced. Then when I play music from the 90's onward, I hear much more bass content, both lower in frequency and louder, sometimes to the point where I have to turn down the sub. The bass content of music in the last 10 years or so seems to have almost excessive bass content. Have you noticed such a difference in content, or perhaps do I need to configure the system differently?

mathman · January 1, 2014

There is a definite change in the bass content of newer music in my experience.

jwhitcomb3 · January 31, 2014

_{Just reporting back a month later that I'm still tickled pink by my refurbished Definitive Technologies sub. For $99 shipped, this was a no brainer. Huge improvement both for music and home theater experiences.The ebay seller still has more available:}

_{http://www.ebay.com/itm/Definitive-Technology-ProSub-60-EACH-BNCNA-/190915043730?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item2c736c6192}

_{Thanks again to everyone who provided guidance here. You guys rawk!}

JohnnyB · January 31, 2014

I am noticing a huge difference in the bass content of music from the different decades. I adjusted the sub while listening to music from the 1960's through 80's, which sounds full and balanced. Then when I play music from the 90's onward, I hear much more bass content, both lower in frequency and louder, sometimes to the point where I have to turn down the sub. The bass content of music in the last 10 years or so seems to have almost excessive bass content. Have you noticed such a difference in content, or perhaps do I need to configure the system differently?

The switch from analog to digital made bass reproduction easier. When mastering LPs, strong, deep bass requires a wider, deeper groove, which means less music can fit on a side. It also made feedback more problematic on playback. With digital, the storage is all numerical, so the bits take the same amount of space whether they're ones (louder) or zeroes (softer). Ditto for cassettes--the puny 1/8" tape with 4 tracks on it moving at 1-7/8 ips didn't provide much room for bass depth or dynamics. For many, the audio system first moved from the home to the car, and a tricked out sound system meant lots of power and deep powerful subs. It turns out those cars with the loud thumping bass are major chick magnets.

My personal opinion is also that music changed to make best use of the available format. In the analog age there were lots of singers and songwriters, and even the metal of the '70s and '80s was more musical and song-oriented than what came later. Digital excels at dynamic contrasts and deep bass, and isn't so kind to subtlies (though it's gotten better). Gone are the singer/songwriters, replaced by hip-hop, thrash, and diva pop driven by deep, loud bass lines and thumps.

Listening to music that spans the last 4 decades is a compelling argument for a powered sub with adjustable volume. It's the best way to control bass output below 50 Hz or so.

Toadroller · February 2, 2014

JohnnyB,

You may have already enjoyed this talk by David Byrne along the same lines:

Armitage · February 5, 2014

I think just about every system should have a sub, specially home theater stuff. I run two high power THX 12 inchers in the front and two high power 15 inchers in the rear...

My next door neighbors kids yell at me to "turn that stuff down!"

So clean and deep it takes the bubbles right out of my drinks.

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