Germany: Cites Rosewood? What to do?

[Hardrockracer]

What the deuce?? Whoa, just finished my list in a rush. Damn authorities.

But what about ebony??

Cheers,

 

HRR

[Ting Ho Dung]

2 hours ago, Hardrockracer said:

What the deuce?? Whoa, just finished my list in a rush. Damn authorities.

But what about ebony??

Cheers,

 

HRR

Ebony is not on the list yet (different species). But at the rate of its destruction I'm surprised it wasn't added years ago.

[crunchee]

21 minutes ago, Ting Ho Dung said:

Ebony is not on the list yet (different species). But at the rate of its destruction I'm surprised it wasn't added years ago.

Gaboon Ebony is usually the Ebony wood that was once regularly used on guitars, such as Gibson LP Custom fretboards...now, Gibson uses Richlite on LP Customs except for the Historic RIs, which still use traditional Ebony...and the Historic RIs definitely ain't cheap.     Martin seems to be using Richlite more and more often on their lower and mid-level acoustic guitars, too:

http://www.wood-database.com/gaboon-ebony/

A handy list:

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/restricted-and-endangered-wood-species/

Don't forget about the Bob Taylor Ebony video:

 

[Ting Ho Dung]

1 minute ago, crunchee said:

Gaboon Ebony is usually the wood that was once regularly used on guitars, such as Gibson LP Custom fretboards...now, Gibson uses Richlite on LP Customs except on the Historic RIs:    

http://www.wood-database.com/gaboon-ebony/

A handy list:

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/restricted-and-endangered-wood-species/

Don't forget about the Bob Taylor Ebony video:

 

I thought it was great that Taylor announced this a few years ago. Deforestation is going to be the death of the human race. The planet will come back eventually. As she has in the past.   

[gorch]

10 hours ago, Ting Ho Dung said:

Ebony is not on the list yet (different species). But at the rate of its destruction I'm surprised it wasn't added years ago.

Ebony definitely is on the list published by German authorities. 

https://www.bfn.de/fileadmin/MDB/documents/themen/cites/Barrierefrei-holzliste-5.pdf

Search for Ebenholz (Diospyros) at the end of page 4.

[Ting Ho Dung]

7 hours ago, gorch said:

Ebony definitely is on the list published by German authorities. 

https://www.bfn.de/fileadmin/MDB/documents/themen/cites/Barrierefrei-holzliste-5.pdf

Search for Ebenholz (Diospyros) at the end of page 4.

Why are they asking you to inform them of what guitars you have? CITES is for (in this case) import / export sales. I wouldn't tell anyone what I own in my house. Especially the authorities. 

If you notice the side note "Search for Ebenholz (Diospyros) at the end of page 4." on the right hand side of the PDF says Madagascar which has suffered deplorable deforestation. That's why it's listed as Appendix II. Not very many people can tell the difference between Madagascan ebony and African especially once it's on a guitar. And it's very hard to determine the point of origin once it slips through Asia. Other ebony is listed as Appendix III which means, as rosewood was, that it doesn't require the proper taxes and paperwork. And justifying another government job. IIRC, the whole government raid on Gibson was because of Madagascan ebony and rosewood. 

I'm still not understanding why they want to know what you currently own. These listings are for sales across country borders. And it is on the seller's end to get the permits. 

A lot of problems with permits and licenses is there is always a clause that makes you give up a constitutional right. I'm sure it's the same there as here. Here it is called the 4th amendment which protects you from unlawful search and seizures. This amendment is why law enforcement must go before a judge and get a search warrant. You pay a tax for the permit and you sign on the dotted line where it explains which rights you have given up. Most people don't read it. The permits I may or may not have say FWC (Florida Fish and Wildlife) can inspect the permitted location any time they wish without notice. Without the permit, they cannot. The County business permits say the same thing only the County guy can (and will) assess a valorem tax on everything you own for which your business requires to do business. In my case when I was a photographer it was taxes on about 80 grand worth of equipment, furniture, computers, etc. IIRC the tax was in the neighborhood of 18%. Each year. Needless to say, I did not get that permit. 

[Hardrockracer]

1 hour ago, Ting Ho Dung said:

Why are they asking you to inform them of what guitars you have? CITES is for (in this case) import / export sales. I wouldn't tell anyone what I own in my house. Especially the authorities. 

If you notice the side note "Search for Ebenholz (Diospyros) at the end of page 4." on the right hand side of the PDF says Madagascar which has suffered deplorable deforestation. That's why it's listed as Appendix II. Not very many people can tell the difference between Madagascan ebony and African especially once it's on a guitar. And it's very hard to determine the point of origin once it slips through Asia. Other ebony is listed as Appendix III which means, as rosewood was, that it doesn't require the proper taxes and paperwork. And justifying another government job. IIRC, the whole government raid on Gibson was because of Madagascan ebony and rosewood. 

I'm still not understanding why they want to know what you currently own. These listings are for sales across country borders. And it is on the seller's end to get the permits. 

A lot of problems with permits and licenses is there is always a clause that makes you give up a constitutional right. I'm sure it's the same there as here. Here it is called the 4th amendment which protects you from unlawful search and seizures. This amendment is why law enforcement must go before a judge and get a search warrant. You pay a tax for the permit and you sign on the dotted line where it explains which rights you have given up. Most people don't read it. The permits I may or may not have say FWC (Florida Fish and Wildlife) can inspect the permitted location any time they wish without notice. Without the permit, they cannot. The County business permits say the same thing only the County guy can (and will) assess a valorem tax on everything you own for which your business requires to do business. In my case when I was a photographer it was taxes on about 80 grand worth of equipment, furniture, computers, etc. IIRC the tax was in the neighborhood of 18%. Each year. Needless to say, I did not get that permit. 

First up, you need to register your guitars with the authorities in case you want to sell them (that is in Germany). And were are talking a private sale. You need to include a sales document that states that the instrument was in your (the sellers) posession before the bespoke law was in action (i.e. before Jan. 2nd 2017). And to proove that, the instruments need to be registered before the end of the year. When you do so, you will get the permit that "allows" you to do that sale without the danger that the instrument will be confiscated. But if you still have all the sales documents to proove when you bought a certain instrument you would not necessarily have to register your instruments with rosewood on them. But, who keeps sales documents of instruments bought decades ago?

You are right about the Ebony. They are only talking about Madagascan Ebony. And who can determine what kind of Ebony was utilised in building a guitar.

But pardon me, if you are worried about your constitutional rights the first thing you should do is cancel your facebook, whatsapp and twitter accounts (if you had any) and , let's face it, the best would be to get off the internet alltogether. But then again, who does and wants that?

HRR

[TobiTill]

Update for the Netherlands:

(I updated my original post as well.)

 

Update January 6th 2017:

After exchanging emails with the authorities this is the situation in the EU for citizens of the Netherlands:

1. No certificate necessary for ownership of guitars containing Indian Rosewood,

if you have proof of ownership before January 2017 (e.g. digital photos).

2. For sale/purchase within the EU: pass on the aforementioned proof of ownership to the next

owner of the instrument.

But please, visit the site ( rvo.nl) and/or contact the CITES-bureau.

 

Regards,

Tobias

[gorch]

Response from the regional officer. I'm in the game and I'm not alone. There are many others and the registration confirmation will be delayed. My guitars will remain legal in my hands. Thanks for keeping heads up fellows.

[Jeff R]

On 12/29/2016 at 4:02 PM, Ting Ho Dung said:

I thought it was great that Taylor announced this a few years ago. Deforestation is going to be the death of the human race. The planet will come back eventually. As she has in the past.   

I thought it was great from a green/stewardship perspective. It's a shame how much ebony has to be harvested to expose the "good" ebony for consumption.

I also thought it was a pretty clever way to employ ebony that was obtained for likely pennies on the dollar due to cosmetic "flaws" into the production of not only quality but subsequently now-more-desirable guitars. The wood "flaws" are solely cosmetic and the guitar is unaffected from a structural and tone perspective (I have no qualms with streaked ebony, btw), the guitars are cheaper due to reduced material costs, there will likely be plenty of that cheaper wood for the taking for years to come, and the consumer hears that story and wants the guitar even more because they're saving the planet and the trees and stuff with their purchase. So many win-wins, for all affected parties.

I worked for 17 years for a very big advertising and marketing firm with a global audience for our product and heavy emphasis in our endeavors on favorable product perception and value in our very, very crafted marketing messages. Taylor's ebony story, the business practice mixed with the marketing machine behind it, the win-win it sold/sells ... it is simply ingenious and one of the best case studies in marketing I've personally ever seen. I liked Taylor guitars before and I like them even more now, even though I see all the moving parts in the equation. Ingenious.

 

[cynic]

^^ Interesting that it works so well for Taylor and wood when I ain't buying the chocolate diamond BS for a second.

[Boomerang~Junkie]

It's looking like the global dumpster fire aspect of this legeslative CF has a healthy start in Germany.

Please read the sentence below out loud to yourself so you can grasp the magnitude of it in its full and unbridaled glory of massive governmental overreach.

"Registering your guitars with the government".  Are you fucking kidding me?!?!

" . . . . . Your papers please".

[JochenP]

Yesterday a offical confirmation arrive me, that my guitars are all "legal" now (because I owned them before 01.01.2017 )

Best: it didn´t cost me a "cent"...

[Ting Ho Dung]

3 hours ago, JochenP said:

Yesterday a offical confirmation arrive me, that my guitars are all "legal" now (because I owned them before 01.01.2017 )

Best: it didn´t cost me a "cent"...

I prefer the government not knowing what I own, legal or not. 

Now that they know, they will find a way to tax you for the privilege of owning them.  

[gorch]

5 hours ago, Ting Ho Dung said:

I prefer the government not knowing what I own, legal or not. 

Now that they know, they will find a way to tax you for the privilege of owning them.  

You had explained that before. My guitars have value and I prefer to advertise them legally when it came to sell them. Having them registered might also be a factor if it came to a case of insurance.

[Ting Ho Dung]

4 minutes ago, gorch said:

You had explained that before. My guitars have value and I prefer to advertise them legally when it came to sell them. Having them registered might also be a factor if it came to a case of insurance.

I guess I live in a gray area. And I have lied on nearly every document I've ever signed. Hell, I don't even endorse my checks the same way twice. But, my only alias is Ting Ho Dung. lol

[Montelovesco]

On 15.1.2017 at 8:31 PM, gorch said:

You had explained that before. My guitars have value and I prefer to advertise them legally when it came to sell them. Having them registered might also be a factor if it came to a case of insurance.

Like a certain Talladega, that is? 😎

[Montelovesco]

I sent a list with manufacturer, model name and serial number to town hall yesterday, received a mail today that I am good. Pretty easy and no need to worry, too.