Germany: Cites Rosewood? What to do?

[JochenP]

http://www.gitarrebass.de/stories/auflagen-fuer-instrumente-mit-palisander-dringende-registrierung-empfohlen/

Hallo,

ich bin etwas verunsichert? Muss ich jetzt alle Instrumente bei der Naturschutzbehörde anmelden? Gibt es da bei Hamer besondere Probleme bei den älteren Gitarren?

Gruß Jochen

 

english: There is a discussion for registration all guitars (in Germnay and European union) because of the protection from all kind of rosewood at 01.01.2017. It is recommended to report all guitars to authority ...

[gorch]

Many thanks for heads up Jochen! It looks like I'm having a job within the holidays.

ETA: Any one know the MIK Standards have real rosewood fingerboards?

[Michael_B]

3 hours ago, JochenP said:

http://www.gitarrebass.de/stories/auflagen-fuer-instrumente-mit-palisander-dringende-registrierung-empfohlen/

Hallo,

ich bin etwas verunsichert? Muss ich jetzt alle Instrumente bei der Naturschutzbehörde anmelden? Gibt es da bei Hamer besondere Probleme bei den älteren Gitarren?

Gruß Jochen

 

english: There is a discussion for registration all guitars (in Germnay and European union) because of the protection from all kind of rosewood at 01.01.2017. It is recommended to report all guitars to authority ...

I've read that Google Translate has recently implemented a quantum improvement in quality.  Out of curiosity, I ran it.

---

Hello,

I am a bit confused Do I now have to register all the instruments with the nature protection authority? Is there any special problems with the older guitars at Hamer?

---  Article Begins Here ---

To start with, the situation is quite complicated! Rio-Palisander, the favorite wood of all guitar builders, has been under strict animal protection since 1992 and can only be traded and processed under very specific conditions.

However, it was only a few years ago that the authorities were able to control the rules and prohibitions more precisely in the minds of all parties involved. Especially vintage dealers, but also manufacturers of high-quality guitars are irritated since then and try to arrange with the conditions. Musicians no longer trust themselves with their instruments, they no longer take them to the stage. As I said, when it comes to Rio-Palisander, to handle boards, frames, floors, bridges or plain veneer, the situation is complicated. So and now, more precisely from January 2, 2017, the situation becomes even more complicated, because now all the Palisander species, not only Rio, are protected by species protection. More than 300 different palisander versions from all over the world. In addition Bubinga and Kosso, which play as wood in the instrument building however not nearly so large part.

Which woods are affected exactly?

Affected are all species of the Palisander m including the subspecies (subspecies). This also includes the often used Indian Palisander Dalbergia latifolia. Three Bubinga species, Guibourtia tessmannii, Guibourtia pellegriniana, Guibourtia demeusei and Kosso Pterocarpus erinaceus are also protected.

What does this mean for musicians?

If you have an instrument at home with these woods, you have nothing to do. No official will knock on the door and ask for a certificate for a guitar. The traveling and playing of concerts in the EU area is still unproblematic. To this end, the industry associations SOMM, GDM and BDMH have jointly published a letter of information on the classification of important timber varieties in Annex II of the CITES Species Protection Agreement.

"Possession: No proofs are required for pure possession."

"Traveling within the EU: No travel arrangements are required within the EU."

"Traveling to non-EU countries: Traveling to a non-EU country is permitted without the submission of musical instruments that contain the wood concerned, provided that the weight of the wood affected by CITES II is less in all musical instruments Than 10 kg. The weight of transport containers and accessories is not included. This rule applies only to personal transport for non-commercial reasons. "

Since most guitars and basses only have rosewood handles, that is, a very small and light part, the regulation here is relatively clear and unproblematic.

What is the case when selling affected instruments?

Again, the industry associations:

"For sale within the EU: For the sale a proof document is recommended. This is generally the commercial invoice or a confirmation of the consumption of legal CITES II wood. In the absence of such evidence, the customs or the local competent authority may confiscate products when they are offered for private sale. "

In the plain text, whoever wants to sell his affected instrument from next year must prove that he has acquired this BEFORE THE NEUREGELUNG. This is not done with the serial number, since it only indicates when the instrument was built, but not when the owner bought it.

So what is to be done?

The industry associations make a clear recommendation: Registering instruments! "In their own interest," as they say, they should be registered as a so-called "pre-acquisition" product by 2 January 2017. "Until that date, the competent authority will, without further evidence, presume that the instruments concerned have come into possession before the start of the new regulation. After this date, a notification is still possible, but the authority will then require proofs (proof of purchase, inventory from the last inventory, etc.) that the instruments have been acquired before January 2, 2017. " As it will surely be for many, the guitars bought privately, no purchase slip to his instrument, then has the look. Or a very high effort to prove the acquisition date. HERE you can find the competent authority for you, which should be signed up before the holidays.

In the case of nature conservation authorities, anyone who registers his stock there is assigned a file number. This record must be on a sales receipt with the details of the wood from which the guitar is built - even if the instrument is sold privately. You are also part of
Google Translate for Business:Translator ToolkitWebsite TranslatorGlobal Market Finder
 

[velorush]

Helpful. Thanks for posting.

[Toadroller]

Sounds like a tax to me.

[velorush]

1 hour ago, Toadroller said:

Sounds like a tax to me.

Did I miss a fee for registration (could have, it was pretty early when I read that)?

On a personal note, I'm planning to call the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency today and see how far I can get with getting some sort of certification on the two rosewood-boarded guitars I presently own (the Senior and an inexpensive acoustic).  If not, I'll ask what they recommend.  Could make for some amusement in an otherwise incredibly busy work day. 

[Andrew]

For sale - guitar collection. Must be collected in person before 2nd January 2017.

Nobody quite knows yet how the regulations will apply!

And with only days to go before implementation.

Within borders there are no restrictions if you have a receipt dated before 2017.

This could kill international trade in vintage guitars if there is an over-reaction. However, Brazilian rosewood has been covered since 1992 without much fuss - and all that has happened, for us Hamerphiles anyway, is that Indian rosewood has been brought under the same level of protection.

 

 

[crunchee]

I can't wait to see what kind of new Rosewood substitute for guitars is gonna get introduced in 2017.    

[zorrow]

This sucks, given I'm seriously considering selling at least half of my guitars.

But in a couple of days I will start listing anyway and let's just see what happens. I will keep you posted!

[gorch]

No need to worry I think. It's just about to register and have the registration id kept with any guitar applying to the rules. No one from customs or any other official will hunt for anything already in place. It's about building up the database and separating existing from new from January 2017 on. How else could it be distinguished. Sure there is a job for any instrument owner to register asap. I don't think the date is critical for a month or two as officials will be overflooded by the sheer amount of registrations.

Future sales won't be difficult at all if the instrument will be accompanying the registration id. Rosewood may disappear from the official markets I think. Hamer owners may actually be happy owning one piece mahogany bodied and rosewood fingerboarded instruments as they won't be built in the extend  any more in the future.

Just my .02 cents.

[crunchee]

3 minutes ago, gorch said:

Future sales won't be difficult at all if the instrument will be accompanying the registration id. Rosewood may disappear from the official markets I think. Hamer owners may actually be happy owning one piece mahogany bodied and rosewood fingerboarded instruments as they won't be built in the extend  any more in the future.

Just my .02 cents.

^^^^^  This!  ^^^^^^  Good luck finding a recent Gibson LP of ANY model (besides CS Historics) with a ONE piece mahogany body.  They are out there (I think somebody here at the HFC had one not too long ago), but they are few and far between.  

[PitBar]

Can someone tell, what kind of rosewood or ebony was used on the SS-1 and SS-2 models?

[gorch]

55 minutes ago, PitBar said:

Can someone tell, what kind of rosewood or ebony was used on the SS-1 and SS-2 models?

It doesn't make any difference to know what's on them since any type of rosewood is in the account.

[Ting Ho Dung]

19 minutes ago, gorch said:

It doesn't make any difference to know what's on them since any type of rosewood is in the account.

Actually, it does. Brazilian Rosewood is Appendix I which means it's in the same Appendix as ivory and will be treated so. The new listings of Rosewood and Bubinga go into Appendix II which means it can be imported / exported with the proper tax applied. The problem is the morons they hire won't be able to tell Ebony from Rosewood let alone the different species of rosewood. Case in point: At a reptile expo where I was an exhibitor, a fellow vendor had a Black Pine Snake on his table to sell. Game and Fish thought it was an Eastern Indigo Snake which is a protected species here. Needless to say, the snakes only similar characteristic is they both have dark pigmented skin. But even that is not the same and the difference can be seen from across the room. The Game officer demanded to examine the snake and everyone around was getting agitated and telling them how different the two are. The officer insisted and she examined the underneath side of the chin to see if it was red, a characteristic of the Indigo. Of course it was not red it was white, a characteristic of the black pine. Then I piped up and said the indigos found in Polk County have white chins, LOL. She took the snake from the guy.   

[gorch]

11 hours ago, Ting Ho Dung said:

The problem is the morons they hire won't be able to tell Ebony from Rosewood let alone the different species of rosewood

Exactly, according to the Hamer homepage the fingerboards are simply rosewood. So, from a declaration point of view and musician rather than wood picker, I don't have a chance to distinguish and therefore declare rosewood all around to avoid fines.

[velorush]

A call to TWRA (our local enforcement agency) went... unanswered. Yes, no one answered the phone listed on the web site. I'd likely have received the same amount of information if someone had answered... So I suppose it is just as well.

[gorch]

German like, pro-actively I've finished my duties. I don't expect an answer soon.

In the process, I had seen that mahogany, ebony, rosewood all are in the list of protected resources. Hamer is just as rare as it could get as we all like the one piece honduras mahogany bodies, don't we?

The German article very well fits for the EU purposes. Thanks to JochenP for posting.

[Ting Ho Dung]

52 minutes ago, velorush said:

A call to TWRA (our local enforcement agency) went... unanswered. Yes, no one answered the phone listed on the web site. I'd likely have received the same amount of information if someone had answered... So I suppose it is just as well.

You are most correct. You are better off that the phone didn't get answered. It's very frustrating to find out you are better educated than someone who has authority over you and your possessions or your well being or the well being of a whole fucking industry. 

[velorush]

3 hours ago, Ting Ho Dung said:

You are most correct. You are better off that the phone didn't get answered. It's very frustrating to find out you are better educated than someone who has authority over you and your possessions or your well being or the well being of a whole fucking industry. 

That is the case in almost every aspect of life, and I'm no better than average on my best day.  More government is almost never the answer, yet increasingly the knee-jerk reaction from the masses. [/tiny APOLITICAL rant] 

[TobiTill]

Hi everyone,

I hope you all had a nice couple of holidays.

Edited on january 6th 2017 to add more/updated information !!!

For the residents of the Netherlands

(I called in this afternoon):

The Dutch authorities are not yet sure how the addition of Rosewood to the CITES appendix II

will be implemented as far as the necessary documentation of origin, date of purchase etc. are concerned.

I was recommended to take pictures of all my guitars as proof of ownership before January 1st 2017.

I will have to inquire again in a couple of weeks, I have subscribed to the newsletter regarding CITES.

Let's keep each other informed.

Update January 6th 2017:

After exchanging emails with the authorities this is the situation in the EU for citizens of the Netherlands:

1. No certificate necessary for ownership of guitars containing Indian Rosewood,

if you have proof of ownership before January 2017 (e.g. digital photos).

2. For sale/purchase within the EU: pass on the aforementioned proof of ownership to the next

owner of the instrument.

But please, visit the site ( rvo.nl) and/or contact the CITES-bureau.

 

Have a nice day and a good transition into 2017, everyone.

 

Regards,

Tobias

[JochenP]

I´ve had contact those who have to do the registration. Nobody knows anything... They also seemed to be suprised 

 

It would be interested to see if "ebay guitars" will brake down at the 02.jan. Only a few Fender with maple neck will still be on offer than 

[Boomerang~Junkie]

Even though Vegas won't post odds on this, the optimistic side of me remains hopefull these changes would be implemented correctly and prudently in order to have a positive effect on protecting the correct endangered wood species.

On the other hand, the realistic side of me is extremely concerned that this will become a painfully obstructive, global dumpster fire.

[crunchee]

So in the meantime, anybody looking at buying a '52 Tele RI?     

[gorch]

10 hours ago, crunchee said:

So in the meantime, anybody looking at buying a '52 Tele RI?     

This belongs to the FS thread!

[crunchee]

6 hours ago, gorch said:

This belongs to the FS thread!

It might if I was selling one.  I'm not.