Biz Prof Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 OK, as a 50-year-old southerner who started playing guitar at the age of 14 and who, predictably, learned songs from the southern rock and country rock genres when I was first cutting my teeth, I've long been told by peers and elders about what a musical genius John Cale was. I know quite well the man's documented impact on Eric Clapton (the 1970s EC) and his influences on peers and contemporaries such as Leon Russell and Mark Knopfler. Several times now, Ive attetmpted to dive into the Cale anthology (always staring with his '72 debut) in order to better understand the cult-like aura surrounding his legacy and perhaps mine some muscial gold in the process. Frankly, I've come away from each experience with a "meh" impression. He was decidely counter-industry and hell, to a large degree counter-culture. Perhaps that renegade, loner element enamors him to many listeners. I've found that he was a capable guitarist, but not anywhere close to a savant or an outstanding talent. His range seemed narrow, to put it another way. To boot, I find his claim to fame--his songs--to be, well, mostly average. I don't think they're awful by any means, but many are one-trick ponies with no compositional depth or tonal diversity to them. The '70s was a decade chock full of guitar-based songwriters and Cale's work, to my ears, doesn't really stand out from the crowd in a manner that would grant his legend status. Admittedly, Knopfler is one of my all time favorite guitarists, and it's fair to make a comparison of Cale and MK. That said, I see so much more depth in Knopler's compositions with Dire Straits. If MK is the British J.J. Cale, then by my measuring stick, he's a vast improvement. I hear some tonal similarties (guitar and voice), but MK nearly always takes his songs in more interesting directions, plus he's a pretty hot-shit picker with an easily identifable sound. So...what the hell am I missing or overlooking here? Am I just musically blind to the man's genius, or Is Cale just a mild anathema to me; similar to the way I view The Band--another act I thought was OK, but not worthy of all the fawning and gushing that followed their tenure?
gtrdaddy Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 The Band is a step and a half up from JJ Cale IMO. I'm with you. JJ Cale has always been underwhelming to listen to for me. I never understood Clapton's obsession there. If Clapton got all John Prine back then instead, I would've loved a Clapton "Prine" era much better.
Biz Prof Posted March 24, 2021 Author Posted March 24, 2021 20 minutes ago, gtrdaddy said: The Band is a step and a half up from JJ Cale IMO. I'd agree with this assessment. I know and enjoy their work better than I do Cale's (overall). I just don't buy for a hot second that they were anywhere near as important in rock history as say, the Stones or Beatles.
hamerhead Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 12 minutes ago, gtrdaddy said: The Band is a step and a half up from JJ Cale IMO. I'm with you. JJ Cale has always been underwhelming to listen to for me. I never understood Clapton's obsession there. If Clapton got all John Prine back then instead, I would've loved a Clapton "Prine" era much better. Cale was a bit like Bob Dylan in that his songs are always better done by someone else. Buddy Guy makes the 'I don't get it' list for me. His sound is unique, but in the nails-on-a-chalkboard-with-a-bright-switch kinda way. But both had waaay more success than me, so wtf do I know??
kizanski Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 15 minutes ago, hamerhead said: Buddy Guy makes the 'I don't get it' list for me. His sound is unique, but in the nails-on-a-chalkboard-with-a-bright-switch kinda way. Shut your filthy mouth!
gtrdaddy Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 16 minutes ago, Biz Prof said: I'd agree with this assessment. I know and enjoy their work better than I do Cale's (overall). I just don't buy for a hot second that they were anywhere near as important in rock history as say, the Stones or Beatles. Well, yes and no. They had a big hand in opening the door for a new genre of rock that had yet to exist really. Country Rock. I believe that Gram Parsons involvement with The Byrds and The Flying Burrito Bros, and Parson's close friendship with Keith Richards and Mick Jagger had more to do with it, but I think the Band was part of that. Gram Parsons friendship with the Stones is what brought us the Mick Jagger "Southern-Drawl" style of singing, and influenced Richards'and Jagger's writing that brought us great tunes such as Wild Horses, Honky Tonk Women and so many other Stones songs that had a distinct country influence. There is a direct connection from that work to Gram Parsons. After Graham Parsons, Linda Ronstadt, the Eagles, America, and so many other country rock acts hit the studios.
LucSulla Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 28 minutes ago, gtrdaddy said: The Band is a step and a half up from JJ Cale IMO. I'm with you. JJ Cale has always been underwhelming to listen to for me. I never understood Clapton's obsession there. If Clapton got all John Prine back then instead, I would've loved a Clapton "Prine" era much better. I'm down with all of this. 15 minutes ago, Biz Prof said: I'd agree with this assessment. I know and enjoy their work better than I do Cale's (overall). I just don't buy for a hot second that they were anywhere near as important in rock history as say, the Stones or Beatles. I think the thing with The Band is that they evolved out of something that started in the late 50s and that they had such a big part to play in Dylan's history. They definitely weren't as important as those band, but they were pretty important. Music from the Big Pink completely blew the minds of folks like Roger Waters and Eric Clapton. I think it's a stretch to say it kicked off Americana, but it definitely started a sound that lots of big time folks chased in the first part of the 70s. Plus, unlike J.J. Cale, I actually prefer their versions of songs. I prefer versions of other people's songs they cover or just play on as well. My favorite version of "Caravan," "Helpless," and "I Shall Be Released" are on the last Waltz. Basically, I had a lot of good, drunk times back in Texas with The Band playing in the background, lol.
LucSulla Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 Seriously, one of my favorite memories was coming in one night to find my roommate completely shithoused after killing a bottle of Jameson, listening to "Ophelia" from The Last Waltz on a loop, and dancing around his bedroom wearing a metal bowl on his head. I asked him, "What in the hell is wrong with you?" "It's Tuesday night, man? What else we gonna do?" Impeccable logic. I got hammered too. Yeesh, where does the time go?
tomteriffic Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 I don't "get" Cale either. There are a couple or three songs of his that I think are very good, but i don't think that those justify his apparent enshrinement. And I tried, through 4 or 5 albums, to understand it. We used to introduce songs by The Band as being by "the only rock 'n' roll band that could have opened for Abraham Lincoln".
Biz Prof Posted March 24, 2021 Author Posted March 24, 2021 4 minutes ago, tomteriffic said: We used to introduce songs by The Band as being by "the only rock 'n' roll band that could have opened for Abraham Lincoln". Damn, that's pretty good. Lol ETA: Might I respectfully ask your permission to use that line (my band covers "The Weight") at future gigs?
hamerhead Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 20 minutes ago, kizanski said: Shut your filthy mouth! If I sang like him, I would!
kizanski Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 1 minute ago, hamerhead said: If I sang like him, I would! Oh... that's right. I forgot. Jeff Lynne/Tom Petty fan.
hamerhead Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 Jeff Lynne/Tom Petty > Buddy Guy. Infinitely more listenable.
kizanski Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 1 minute ago, hamerhead said: Jeff Lynne/Tom Petty > Buddy Guy. Infinitely more listenable. I think you got your head stuck in the CNC machine, which coincidentally is what all Jeff Lynne productions sound like.
hamerhead Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 ..and yours in a cheese grater, which is the equivalent of listening to Mr. Guy.
Biz Prof Posted March 24, 2021 Author Posted March 24, 2021 Lads, let's bring the discussion back to the alleged genius of the late musical vagrant, John Cale.
beezerboy Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 he had the ability to write songs that people liked. and good enough that other big name people recorded. other than that... I got nothin'
beezerboy Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 as for the Band... I like them except Robbie's wretched lead playing. horrible
Biz Prof Posted March 24, 2021 Author Posted March 24, 2021 1 minute ago, hamerhead said: ......Sorry..... Mike started it. "Don't make me turn this car around, boys."
kizanski Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 8 minutes ago, Biz Prof said: Lads, let's bring the discussion back to the alleged genius of the late musical vagrant, John Cale. Nah, I'm going to stick to talking about people who I've heard of. And insulting Tim, who has rampant tinnitus.
diablo175 Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 Who's JJ Cale? Ahh. Never mind. Just consulted the almighty Google. Meh.
hamerhead Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 'Rampant Tinnitus'. Wasn't that Buddy Guy's latest? It was for his audience.
LucSulla Posted March 24, 2021 Posted March 24, 2021 12 minutes ago, beezerboy said: as for the Band... I like them except Robbie's wretched lead playing. horrible Someone should have punched him in the junk every time he even thought about pinch harmonics. 21 minutes ago, Biz Prof said: Lads, let's bring the discussion back to the alleged genius of the late musical vagrant, John Cale. We're all just bringing up things better than... hey wait a minute, are we on to a new Cale now?
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