No tone pot in circuit?

[Cboss]

If the experts could weigh in.. I noticed on a couple different guitars, three different pickups each, that everything sounded fuller, richer, more good with the tone knob out of circuit; just the selector switch to 500k volume to the output jack

What do you think, what is this doing electrically? I tried this with Bill lawrence, DiMarzio and Seymour Duncan, humbuckers and single coils, same result to my ears with all

I should say I never use the tone knob, I only make adjustments with the volume and those are very slight

[Dave Scepter]

21 minutes ago, Cboss said:

everything sounded fuller, richer, more good with the tone knob out of circuit; just the selector switch to 500k volume to the output jack

What do you think, what is this doing electrically? 

You should ask Edward Van Halen...

Oh wait~ 🤔

[Cboss]

4 minutes ago, Dave Scepter said:

You should ask Edward Van Halen...

Oh wait~ 🤔

I built my V on purpose that way (EVH wiring) and it sounds great, but kind of rediscovered this by accident with the other guitars..

[Dave Scepter]

12 minutes ago, Cboss said:

I built my V on purpose that way (EVH wiring) and it sounds great, but kind of rediscovered this by accident with the other guitars..

Yeah, I never use my guitar's tone control "bypass it completely"... if I need to change tone, I'll use my EQ pedal

Also direct mount the PU's when I can 

[benjammin308]

Even when your tone knob is on 10 some small part of your highs are being drained off through the tone cap.  You will sound different (brighter maybe?) when the tone pot is bypassed.  This is why changing the cap value can affect tone even if you leave the knob at 10 all the time.

[Cboss]

4 hours ago, benjammin308 said:

Even when your tone knob is on 10 some small part of your highs are being drained off through the tone cap.  You will sound different (brighter maybe?) when the tone pot is bypassed.  This is why changing the cap value can affect tone even if you leave the knob at 10 all the time.

Can anyone speculate why Hamer typically uses .010uf and so many others use .022 or .047?

[Jakeboy]

2 hours ago, Cboss said:

Can anyone speculate why Hamer typically uses .010uf and so many others use .022 or .047?

To let more highs through?

[benjammin308]

The larger the cap value, the larger the frequency range that will be drained off.  A .22uf cap will remove more high frequencies than a .01uf cap.  The folks at Hamer probably just preferred the way their instruments sounded with a .01 in the circuit.  The value and taper of the pot will also affect the results.

[JGravelin]

On 3/31/2023 at 7:28 PM, Cboss said:

I noticed on a couple different guitars, three different pickups each, that everything sounded fuller, richer, more good with the tone knob out of circuit; just the selector switch to 500k volume to the output jack. What do you think, what is this doing electrically?

I should say I never use the tone knob, I only make adjustments with the volume and those are very slight

Instead of the raw, unadulterated millivolt output from the pickup interacting with the ganged effect of two 500k together with the final one also interacting with the capacitor, you've eliminated an amount of treble bleed-off that is shunted to ground and this more pure signal .. is obviously doing it for you! Love it!!

If you want to have some fun, there are 1meg pots and No Load pots as well. These higher values bleed off very little to no treble at max wide-open but have the same declining sweep as one rolls the control backward. Any potentiometer is a variable resistor and the amount of treble bleed - the actual "resistance" toward the mV energy and output signal and gain there - is dictated by the value of the pot.  As one rolls back, the more resistance and treble bleed is applied. For example, a 500k rolled back 1/2 way to 1/3 of the way depending on the taper of the pot should equal 250k. What this means is that more presence and high treble is being drained to the ground as you roll the pot backward.

The closest to "pickup direct to output" would be a single No Load Vol. At full open, there's no resistance loading to the pickup but, as you roll back, same with any pot - resistance is introduced. Again, operating exactly the same as any other pot but with absolutely 100% full range of sweep. Consider this in the Tone pot position.

No Load, 1meg, 500k, 300k, 250k, 150k, 100k, 50k, and more pots can be found on the internet very easily and they all have a use. There are no hard rules here, only what sounds good to You with your gear and playing.

 

 

[JGravelin]

28 minutes ago, benjammin308 said:

The larger the cap value, the larger the frequency range that will be drained off.  A .22uf cap will remove more high frequencies than a .01uf cap.  The folks at Hamer probably just preferred the way their instruments sounded with a .01 in the circuit.  The value and taper of the pot will also affect the results.

Yes. And the relationship between caps and pots is something to be considered as well. With ye olden Hamer pots I've tested, they measure up to be less than 500k despite being noted as such. Modern 500k caps tend to measure at that figure or above. I've seen as high as 538k and yes that makes a big difference.

The electronic values all interact to give the end-result and my educated guess is that since the value of the pots was splitting the difference, they did the same with the caps too. Sounds Good = Is Good. Rules be damned.

[JGale]

Here I am without a racoondog in the fight to say .. if you have a single volume/tone, like God intended, then you have an option in 50s vs. 60s wiring. I currently have a 2 P90 guitar with the tone circuit bleeding signal from the output of the volume control vice the input. Brighter, tighter and more dynamic. Bonus, the tone control is now interactive with the volume. Better for cleans is what I read. The 60s setup is supposedly better, smoother for high gain.

[JGravelin]

And this way too

 

 

[mudshark]

treble bleed circuit

[Jeff R]

Talk about excellent timing ... a client's Brent Mason-style Tele conversion yesterday included a push/pull tone knob that either activates or bypasses the middle pickup "blend" subcircuit. A DIY'er might use this technique to switch between - or at least sample via experiment - the effect and/or intensity of a pot's inclusion or absence in a circuit. In the BM circuit's case, one extra 250K CTS mini, I see why BM wanted the bypass switch in this circuit ... the neck humbucker and bridge stack sparkle more when you bypass the blend circuit.

[Dave Scepter]

How about nuth'n at all?😳

[Cboss]

I've actually found a perfect solution for this, a no load tone pot.  On 10 it is not in circuit at all, roll it down a little and it comes in at a value close to it's advertised value, and goes down to open as you rotate, like normal.  Fender sells a really nice 250k one that has a detent at 10 that I used in my Daytona, 500k ones for the other guitars I've made out of existing tone pots by cutting the carbon track right at max clockwise, there are many good videos on how to do this. It's very easy

It really works well - gives you the EVH no tone pot openness, but if you want a different sound the normal range is available

[kizanski]

Volume only.

The Victim refuses to be toned down.

 

[Cboss]

That is pretty cool! What is the pickup in that?

[JGale]

ThIs OnE.

[kizanski]

2 hours ago, Cboss said:

That is pretty cool! What is the pickup in that?

The Victim Explorer sports a Rio BBQ Bucker. 

[HSB0531]

When I got my '73 Fender P-bass (in 1974), I almost immediately added another pickup and converted the tone pot to a volume.  I never had a use for a tone pot anyway.

When I got the Standard Bass, I went with 3 volume controls.  It's a little more work to get the balance right with 3 p/u's, but worth it.