1X12 Cabinet Experts: Is This The One I Want?

[velorush]

No idea about cabinets, but I've heard good remarks about these. Looking for a 1X12 that would serve a wide variety of situations.

https://reverb.com/item/85519353-bogner-112cp-closed-back-dual-ported-1x12-guitar-speaker-cabinet-2010s-black

This particular example is about $150 too high (plus shipping), but is this the model I'm looking for?  If not, what?

but is this the model I'm looking for? 

Edited November 9, 2024 by velorush

[mathman]

These are not the cabinets you are looking for.   

Sorry,  disregard this.  I have no idea.  I just couldn't resist.   There was a force that compelled me to reply!  with a bad joke...

[DaveH]

Have you ever played a Theile cab?

[veatch]

I would recommend a mesa thiele. You can probably find one used for $400. Or go with a China series egnater - those are thiele as well, but can be had for half the price. 

[DaveH]

EV has posted public domain blueprints for a Thiele cab if you are good in the wood shop and have tools. The Mesa Thiele has modified dimensions... That being said, I have one and it is my favorite 1x12 cab.

[Dutchman]

I love my EarCandy Sov. Kinda hard to find but awesome cab!

[JGale]

Or buy one ready made, in either size, and finish it yourself.

http://www.trmguitarcabs.com/ported-cabs.html

[HSB0531]

On 11/9/2024 at 7:31 PM, DaveH said:

EV has posted public domain blueprints for a Thiele cab if you are good in the wood shop and have tools. The Mesa Thiele has modified dimensions... That being said, I have one and it is my favorite 1x12 cab.

Yup.

All based on the work done by A. Neville Theile and Richard H. Small.  They came up with large & small electrical/mechanical speaker parameters that would be used to design and tune cabinets that would be optimal for the speaker. This also included optimal Length/Width/Height cabinet ratios.  Before that, everything was trial and error.

[BoogieMKIIA]

1 hour ago, JGale said:

Or buy one ready made, in either size, and finish it yourself.

http://www.trmguitarcabs.com/ported-cabs.html

I always wanted to try a TRM cab, are they good?  They have pine and Baltic birch ply, lots of variations to choose from.

 

 

[velorush]

I found one loaded with the Mesa Black Shadow (Celestion C90, according to Mesa) speaker - izat okay?  I thought these were engineered specifically for an EV12ML? 

Do people regularly swap other speakers sound like in the Thiele? I have a couple of spares around (a barely used Celestion Blue and a never used Warehouse ET of some sort).

[Cboss]

12 hours ago, HSB0531 said:

Yup.

All based on the work done by A. Neville Theile and Richard H. Small.  They came up with large & small electrical/mechanical speaker parameters that would be used to design and tune cabinets that would be optimal for the speaker. This also included optimal Length/Width/Height cabinet ratios.  Before that, everything was trial and error.

What are the sizes of the large and the small speaker?

[django49]

In this case, the large and small parameters  refers to the cabinets ability to perform, not the size of the speaker itself. That said, you can find (or build) a Thiele cabinet to EVM specs for their 12" or 15" speaker. I have built both, but also scaled one down for a 10" speaker.

One thing to consider is to add "wings" to make the cabinet wider when laid on it's side. (The extensions do not change the critical interior dimensions of the speaker box. What they DO do is create a platform to hold an amp head (or stack a combo) which is often wider than the traditional 12" Thiele. I used an example I found on line long ago.

IMO, you are best off by using the EVM. Assuming you are okay with the WEIGHT. There are a few outfits that make equivalent speakers. I have NOT  tried the newer Copperback Neo (250 watts) in a  Thiele but have tried it in other cabinets and like it a lot. HUGE weight reduction.  The C90 seems like a good alternative. I would NOT use such as the Alnico Blue. That is more suited for an open back cab (or my favorite, the Forte 3D). Keep in mind it is also a 15 watt speaker vs the 200 watt EVM. MAYBE the Alnico Cream would work.

FWIW, if you like the 1 x 12s and like to experiment, my favorite is to use a pair, stacking a Forte 3D with Alnico Cream atop a Thiele  with EVM. Sounds huge and better than either alone. IMO. Easier to move than a 2 x 12 with heavy speakers. And you can choose to use either one alone depending upon your mood.

 

[soli'd]

I have a Hermida ported cab (Thiele parameters) that I have loaded with a Scumback M75 and it's one of the best sounding 1x12s I've used, especially for kerrang-rock.  

I also have a Glaswerks Thiele cab with an early 90's EVM12L.  It is notably heavier and louder (efficiency?) and sounds more hi-fi in general, though I'm sure that's the speaker difference more than the cab.  

Neither here nor there, but speakers other than an EVM-12L can work well in a Thiele cab.

[Cboss]

4 hours ago, django49 said:

In this case, the large and small parameters  refers to the cabinets ability to perform, not the size of the speaker itself. That said, you can find (or build) a Thiele cabinet to EVM specs for their 12" or 15" speaker. I have built both, but also scaled one down for a 10" speaker.

One thing to consider is to add "wings" to make the cabinet wider when laid on it's side. (The extensions do not change the critical interior dimensions of the speaker box. What they DO do is create a platform to hold an amp head (or stack a combo) which is often wider than the traditional 12" Thiele. I used an example I found on line long ago.

IMO, you are best off by using the EVM. Assuming you are okay with the WEIGHT. There are a few outfits that make equivalent speakers. I have NOT  tried the newer Copperback Neo (250 watts) in a  Thiele but have tried it in other cabinets and like it a lot. HUGE weight reduction.  The C90 seems like a good alternative. I would NOT use such as the Alnico Blue. That is more suited for an open back cab (or my favorite, the Forte 3D). Keep in mind it is also a 15 watt speaker vs the 200 watt EVM. MAYBE the Alnico Cream would work.

FWIW, if you like the 1 x 12s and like to experiment, my favorite is to use a pair, stacking a Forte 3D with Alnico Cream atop a Thiele  with EVM. Sounds huge and better than either alone. IMO. Easier to move than a 2 x 12 with heavy speakers. And you can choose to use either one alone depending upon your mood.

 

Could you comment on a 1x15 vs 1x12?  I've never heard a 15", but am under the assumption that they move a LOT of air.  10" to 12" is certainly a huge jump 

[HSB0531]

7 hours ago, Cboss said:

What are the sizes of the large and the small speaker?

I meant the large and small signal parameters that are in both the mechanical and electrical properties of a speaker:

Thiele, A. N. (1971). "Loudspeakers in Vented Boxes: Part 1". Journal of the Audio Engineering Society. 19 (May): 382–392.

^ Thiele, A. N. (1971). "Loudspeakers in Vented Boxes: Part 2". Journal of the Audio Engineering Society. 19 (June): 471–483.

^ Benson, J. E. (1996), Theory and Design of Loudspeaker Enclosures, Indianapolis, Howard Sams & Company, ISBN 0-7906-1093-0 (collection of three papers originally published in Australia, 1968–1971).

^ Small, R. H. (1972). "Direct Radiator Loudspeaker System Analysis". Journal of the Audio Engineering Society. 20 (June): 383–395.

^ Small, R. H. (1972). "Closed-Box Loudspeaker Systems–Part 1: Analysis". Journal of the Audio Engineering Society. 20 (December): 798–808.

^ Small, R. H. (1973). "Closed-Box Loudspeaker Systems–Part 2: Synthesis". Journal of the Audio Engineering Society. 21 (February): 11–18.

^ Small, R. H. (1973). "Vented-Box Loudspeaker Systems–Part 1: Small-Signal Analysis". Journal of the Audio Engineering Society. 21 (June): 363–372.

Thiele/Small parameters can be found here:

https://www.soundimports.eu/en/blogs/blog/thiele-small-parameters/

And here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small_parameters#Large_signal_parameters

They're provided by most speaker manufacturers and would be imputed into a speaker design program such as:

https://loudsoft.com/fine-design-software/

https://www.bodziosoftware.com.au/

 

 

[HSB0531]

8 hours ago, velorush said:

I found one loaded with the Mesa Black Shadow (Celestion C90, according to Mesa) speaker - izat okay?  I thought these were engineered specifically for an EV12ML? 

Do people regularly swap other speakers sound like in the Thiele? I have a couple of spares around (a barely used Celestion Blue and a never used Warehouse ET of some sort).

When I was originally building speakers in the late 70's-80's we used the EVM-12L for the Thiele/Small aligned cabinets and it worked really well.  When EV discontinued the EVM-12L, I found an almost exact match with the Eminence Delta Pro 12A speaker and used an optional Fane Alnico AXA12 that also worked great with no retuning or mods to the cabinet.

[django49]

I do think the Eminence is a good match. And cheaper, I think. Re the EVM-12L, they stopped making them for a while, but they are readily available for many years now. Seems like the going price is around $280, but you may well get 15% off if you wait for the periodic sale at MF or Sweetwater or the like. Sign up for their membership thing and maybe get 8% in credits too.

Re the question as to 12" vs 15".....The larger one comes in either a bass or guitar version. It will def move a lot of air, but the 12 is no slouch either. Mine has the 15B for use with bass. (Long ago I had a Mesa Mk 2B combo ---Lovely hardwood cab, BTW---with an EVM-15. It was great but a real bear to lug about).

Keep in mind that the EVM is not for everyone. You are pretty much going to get what you put into it without coloration. You might describe it as "Hi Fi". Very unlikely you will get speaker distortion from a 200 Watt speaker. One of the reasons I like to use a pair of 1 x 12s, with the Alnico Cream adding "a bit of warmth" stacked on top of the Thiele. But if I had to go with a single 12, the Thiele would lose out to the Forte/Alnico Cream. But that is for MY tastes.....

Anyone remember when Mesa offered a 4 x 12 with a quad of EVMs? I reckon it weighed something like 160 pounds!

[velorush]

This thread has proven far more interesting than promised by the original question!

[Cboss]

15 hours ago, django49 said:

I do think the Eminence is a good match. And cheaper, I think. Re the EVM-12L, they stopped making them for a while, but they are readily available for many years now. Seems like the going price is around $280, but you may well get 15% off if you wait for the periodic sale at MF or Sweetwater or the like. Sign up for their membership thing and maybe get 8% in credits too.

Re the question as to 12" vs 15".....The larger one comes in either a bass or guitar version. It will def move a lot of air, but the 12 is no slouch either. Mine has the 15B for use with bass. (Long ago I had a Mesa Mk 2B combo ---Lovely hardwood cab, BTW---with an EVM-15. It was great but a real bear to lug about).

Keep in mind that the EVM is not for everyone. You are pretty much going to get what you put into it without coloration. You might describe it as "Hi Fi". Very unlikely you will get speaker distortion from a 200 Watt speaker. One of the reasons I like to use a pair of 1 x 12s, with the Alnico Cream adding "a bit of warmth" stacked on top of the Thiele. But if I had to go with a single 12, the Thiele would lose out to the Forte/Alnico Cream. But that is for MY tastes.....

Anyone remember when Mesa offered a 4 x 12 with a quad of EVMs? I reckon it weighed something like 160 pounds!

Is anyone making a quality Forte replica/ model right now? I think I noticed an avatar 2x12, any comments on those? I would like to try one of these, but they seem rare and expensive

How would the forte sound compare to a regular open back 1x12 cab, is it just another dimension of greatness?

[Cboss]

15 minutes ago, velorush said:

This thread has proven far more interesting than promised by the original question!

The hfc! A really fantastic place, so much incredible information here . And very valuable as it's difficult and expensive to try all this stuff on your own blind

[django49]

Avatar makes quality replicas. However, I note that they no longer show 1 x 12s, only 2 x 12s in either horizontal or vertical orientation.

FWIW, I had someone here on the site send me detailed pictures of the inside and outside of a Forte cabinet with dimensions. It was not rocket science to build my own. Truth be told I have built too many. Partly so I could experiment with different speakers......And from 8" (stereo) to 15" speakers. I really should sell a few of them, but I just don't want to mess with shipping heavy boxes. So I reckon I will only sell the extras locally.

Here is the thing about the sound. They have the best (IMO) of both a closed back and open cabinet. The back is closed but it is ported on either side.  I guess you could say the punch of a closed back and the reflection of an open back, if that makes sense.  I like to say the small 1 x 12 sounds like it is 3 feet tall and 5 feet wide.  You get the sound from the front AND from both sides. Internally, it has 2 reflecting panels that direct the sound from the back of the speaker out either side. There is also a reflecting panel directly behind the speaker. Also, deep grooves routed into the interior panels to break up the sound rather than just bouncing off flat surfaces. Which also reduces weight. (I like to build with pine for light weight and tone, but with hardwood edges for strength).

At risk of potentially adding confusion, also search for "Barefaced" cabinets. They are from the UK and not cheap. They sorta do the same thing in an even smaller box. Their claim is that the 1 x12 sounds like a 2 x 12. Which is to say bigger. Kinda what I am saying about the Forte. I have also reverse engineered some of them. Hard to say which is better.

IMO, these are not that hard to build if a person has some decent skills and tools. That is, once you get an understanding of how they are put together.  These pictures night help. I reckon my routing is not as "clean" as that done with the proper CNC machines, but it works for me.

These cabinet types are def worth checking out if   you get a chance.

 

 

https://barefacedaudio.com/collections/avd-guitar-cabs/products/reformer-112

[JGale]

How timely. I have a re-coned Delta Pro 12A and a Forte cab I could be persuaded to part with. Forte currently has a WGS ET90 in it.

Shipping would suck though.

[JGale]

Cliff has two Mesa 1x12 C90 cabinets in his live rig. Both are a different size. Not greatly different, but different.

[HSB0531]

18 hours ago, django49 said:

I do think the Eminence is a good match. And cheaper, I think. Re the EVM-12L, they stopped making them for a while, but they are readily available for many years now. Seems like the going price is around $280, but you may well get 15% off if you wait for the periodic sale at MF or Sweetwater or the like. Sign up for their membership thing and maybe get 8% in credits too.

Re the question as to 12" vs 15".....The larger one comes in either a bass or guitar version. It will def move a lot of air, but the 12 is no slouch either. Mine has the 15B for use with bass. (Long ago I had a Mesa Mk 2B combo ---Lovely hardwood cab, BTW---with an EVM-15. It was great but a real bear to lug about).

Keep in mind that the EVM is not for everyone. You are pretty much going to get what you put into it without coloration. You might describe it as "Hi Fi". Very unlikely you will get speaker distortion from a 200 Watt speaker. One of the reasons I like to use a pair of 1 x 12s, with the Alnico Cream adding "a bit of warmth" stacked on top of the Thiele. But if I had to go with a single 12, the Thiele would lose out to the Forte/Alnico Cream. But that is for MY tastes.....

Anyone remember when Mesa offered a 4 x 12 with a quad of EVMs? I reckon it weighed something like 160 pounds!

I see that now, they rebadged it as the EVM-12L Classic.  Regarding 12" vs 15" I think it's a matter of what the sound difference is, and what someone prefers.  I can see the 15" being used for Jazz, where an extended low end with less distortion is desired.  Keep in mind that a 15" speaker typically requires more cabinet volume than a 12" for the same low frequency extension.

I used to work at a place called Wachuwan Music in Bayside NY (1979-83)  Our 2 main EV speakers for guitar or compact keyboard were the EVM-12L and 15B.  We used to unscrew the back heatsink and remove it for weight savings.  For the EVM-12L, we built cabinets from the original T/S aligned plans that EV sent us.  I'm assuming that they were the same as the ones Mesa used.  If you look at the bare wood cabinet in the thread above, there's a center wood section screwed in place.  That's to change the tuning of the cabinet.  Keeping it in place tunes the cabinet lower (guessing at 80Hz.?) Removing it would get the tuning closer to what you would expect from an open back cabinet.

I've used (2) 1x12 cabinets with the Eminence version, and also (1) Eminence loaded cab. with (1) Fane AXA12 Alnico loaded cab.  I like the sounds from each combo as well as each one alone.  The EVM-12L style is aggressive with more low end balls, while the Alnico has a sweet creamy top end.  If you can afford both in separate cabs, go for it.

A stamped frame Alnico is a lot lighter than the EVM-12L which is around 19 Lbs.  But the EV is typically louder across the whole frequency range and can withstand higher input levels for longer periods.  On the other hand, the Alnico usually has a sweeter cone breakup when pushed.  It all comes down to what you like in the end.  It would be best if there was an opportunity to audition both side by side.

 

[HSB0531]

1 hour ago, django49 said:

Avatar makes quality replicas. However, I note that they no longer show 1 x 12s, only 2 x 12s in either horizontal or vertical orientation.

FWIW, I had someone here on the site send me detailed pictures of the inside and outside of a Forte cabinet with dimensions. It was not rocket science to build my own. Truth be told I have built too many. Partly so I could experiment with different speakers......And from 8" (stereo) to 15" speakers. I really should sell a few of them, but I just don't want to mess with shipping heavy boxes. So I reckon I will only sell the extras locally.

Here is the thing about the sound. They have the best (IMO) of both a closed back and open cabinet. The back is closed but it is ported on either side.  I guess you could say the punch of a closed back and the reflection of an open back, if that makes sense.  I like to say the small 1 x 12 sounds like it is 3 feet tall and 5 feet wide.  You get the sound from the front AND from both sides. Internally, it has 2 reflecting panels that direct the sound from the back of the speaker out either side. There is also a reflecting panel directly behind the speaker. Also, deep grooves routed into the interior panels to break up the sound rather than just bouncing off flat surfaces. Which also reduces weight. (I like to build with pine for light weight and tone, but with hardwood edges for strength).

At risk of potentially adding confusion, also search for "Barefaced" cabinets. They are from the UK and not cheap. They sorta do the same thing in an even smaller box. Their claim is that the 1 x12 sounds like a 2 x 12. Which is to say bigger. Kinda what I am saying about the Forte. I have also reverse engineered some of them. Hard to say which is better.

IMO, these are not that hard to build if a person has some decent skills and tools. That is, once you get an understanding of how they are put together.  These pictures night help. I reckon my routing is not as "clean" as that done with the proper CNC machines, but it works for me.

These cabinet types are def worth checking out if   you get a chance.

 

 

https://barefacedaudio.com/collections/avd-guitar-cabs/products/reformer-112

I always wanted to build a furniture grade bare wood cabinet, but never got around to it.

[django49]

Okay, since I mentioned  two relatively different cabinet types, here is a bit of illustration. In this case, it is a "Barefaced" style atop a "Forte 3D" with a matching headshell for the amp. The Barefaced is a bit smaller and lighter while getting more or less the same effect. I tend to like the Forte a bit more, but either one works well. Use them both together with that 200 watt head and it is going to stands up very well to a much bigger and less moveable stack. I have a few stories. 😉

FWIW, I sometimes use a single 1 x 10 Barefaced style cab for casual gigs and it never lets me down.