ZR Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 I mainly like to analyze things and pick the best-made product regardless of brand name. That usually means NOT buying what the majority of the public thinks is the best. For instance, Gibson and Fender. Yes, they've made great guitars in the past and are capable of making some great ones today. But, due to their corporate philosophies they have dumbed-down most of their products to hit various price points. I don't have a problem with that either in that I'm a free-market capitalist and whatever sells sells; people will vote with their dollars. However, I do have a pet peeve with people just blindly buying a brand because of the brand; Gibson, Harley...whatever. Now, if you truly like what you're getting and not just being deceived by the smoke and mirrors of marketing then that's fine. I just feel that many consumers are blind and don't engage their brains enough! Now, having said all that I do take a sort of elitist pride in owning brands like Hamer guitars, or my Zinky amp in that I feel like they represent a more intelligent, well thought out decision; I'm not just another average consumer. In fact, I may sometimes shy away from a brand name even if it is a better product so as to not lose my independent street cred...crazy, I know! This was exactly the case with Gibson. I felt that unless you spent an arm and a leg you probably wouldn't get a very good value for your dollar as you're mainly paying for the name. I tried so many other short-scale guitars (Hamer included) to try and fix my Les Paul jones but nothing really did it for me; close, but not quite there. I was always looking for that Les Paul tone but never quite getting it. Well, I finally traded for a '97 LP Classic Plus in Transparent Amber ... It’s a nice guitar with features I like; one piece back, thinner 60’s neck, hotter pickups I didn’t think I would like but actually do, a nice top but doesn’t look like some “lawyer’s guitar”, lacquer finish, vintage nickel hardware, the aged inlays but not the snot green ones (even though the pic shows it more that way than they look like in person) I also bought a Epiphone Elitist Les Paul in Ebony which was made at Fugi Gen Gakki in Japan and the quality is incredible! It is actually speced out and built better than my Gibson. It’s non–weight relieved, long neck tenon, has a bone nut instead of plastic, mother of pearl inlays instead of plastic, USA pickups (which were changed to Gibson Burstbuckers), vintage nickel hardware, correct thin binding detail in the lower cutaway etc. thin poly finish (though you can see the grain of the wood like with an older laquer finish). I also bought a Dean Soltero SL which was also made in Japan at Fugi Gen Gakki and the quality is incredible! I like it a lot because it gives me the LP vibe in a very unique package. I’ll be swapping out the stock USA Dimarzio’s (fairly hot) for a pair of Seth Lovers. Anyway, between the 2 Les Pauls the MIJ one is built so much nicer and plays better too. Sound is very similar but I’ll have to swap out pickups to really compare the two. The Gibson is no slouch in the playing and sound department but the Elitist does it all with less fret buzz. They both have their own mojo and are both great guitars. However, if you were to compare the two from a build quality stand point the Elitist wins hands down. The Gibson has more orange peel look in the finish, you can feel the binding edges (they’re not flush and seamless where they meet the wood), fretboard inlays are not as precisely set (more gaps), Gibson headstock inlay is not as precisely set (not flush with surrounding area). And, as mentioned, the features / details on the Elitist make it more historically accurate; non weight relieved, long neck tenon, thin binding, and more of a neck angle than the Gibson which I believe to be more historically accurate but I’d have to measure to verify. The Elitist is a better guitar by features and build quality AND it’s MUCH cheaper. If anything the 2 guitars should trade places; we should be looking at the Gibson and seeing all this great craftsmanship and then upon seeing the build flaws in the Elitist say, ”well it’s not built as well, but it’s pretty good for the money. But, it’s all switched around in reality; the crappier guitar is the one that everyone wants because it says Gibson on the headstock! I find lately that I’ve been gravitating towards picking up the Gibson more. Have I succumbed to the Gibson mystique? Am I turning into one of those “consumer sheep”? Does being made in the USA hold such a power over me that I feel connected to the legacy of past performances with this great American brand? Also, what’s everyone’s take on historic accuracy anyway? My logical side says what does it all matter? Who’s to say that the old way was actually the best way? Does it matter that Gibson (since the early 80’s) bores 9 big holes in the possibly less resonant heavier wood before putting the top cap on? Even more extreme on their chambered models… I know a lot of fine instruments are being made with chambered bodies. But, if this chambering alters the sound as they claim, then how can Gibson say that the weight relief holes have no real impact on the tone? I know that ultimately the guitar is just a tool and the end result of music is what I strive to achieve but sometimes playing the instrument that’s just right for you can be beneficial in achieving that. I’m still figuring that out with the 3 short scale guitars I have. I’ll be swapping out some pickups and doing some more comparisons in the hopes of selling 1 or 2 of them. I’d like to keep all three but I know that they all deliver such a similar sound that the economy dictates that I don’t need that much redundancy. What’s your take on any of the above points/opinions? Signed, Obsessively yours (shut up and play yer guitar!) Crap, not sure what I did wrong on the last 2 pics...they didn't show up in the post yet you can get to the pics by cut and pasting the URL. Anyone know what I did wrong?
cmatthes Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 Crap, not sure what I did wrong on the last 2 pics...they didn't show up in the post yet you can get to the pics by cut and pasting the URL. Anyone know what I did wrong? Fixed! (you left out the " / " on the trail "IMG" code... it should have looked like this )
paul144 Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 I agree, thats why I own 2 Heritages. A goldtop H150 and a H535. Can't beat the value of a good used one!
MCChris Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 That was a helluva ramble, so much so that I don't know if this comment even applies, but working at Guitar Center in the early '90s turned me off to Gibson forever. Should have done the same for Fender, but I have two Strats that I absolutely love. The crap we got from those two companies was, if I'm being polite, off-putting.And on the Harley tip, my wife and I went on a cruise years ago and met another couple who had Harley EVERYTHING: hats, shirts, shoes, flipflops, swim trucks, towels, wallets, sunglasses, lanyards for those sunglasses, you name it. A marketer's wet dream, those two were (actually, if I recall correctly, the wife could have been anyone's wet dream).
RobB Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 Jeezum Crow...not sure where to start.Gibson get a fair amount of bashing on this board, generally by people who really have no practical experience in woodworking, finishing or luthiery. It's pretty juvenile and gets fatiguing after a while.I've owned some very nice Gibsons, mainly due to taking my time and looking around to find good ones. They are out there, you just have to search a bit. That being said, I've never met a production Gibby that didn't need a new, bone nut. "Open D-string Disease", as I call it. I usally plek my guitars, though my LP didn't need it (getting a new nut currently, though). Gibson Warranty paid for the plekking of my J160E, shaving a little meat off the jumbo frets. Hey, at least they follow through on their fukkups!Hamers strict quality control and controlled production numbers allow them to lavish more time on all of the important points of construction. Overall, their quality is excellent and very consistent. I've NEVER had to replace nuts or plek any of my Hamers as they are usually good to go off the shelf. Hamer does have their own proprietary QC issues, mainly in the finishing department. My '95 Standard would be perfect if not for the "pizza day" thumbprint on the top. I had a newer Standard a few years back that I sent back to the dealer to buff out the orange peel. Also, "Hameritis", anyone?I don't know why guitars from Fuji Gen Gakki/Terada plants are so nicely made. I'd bet their factories are just as big as Fender/Gibson, if not bigger. Cultural? Pride in workmanship? Superior tooling? The Yamaha SBG2000 I recently purchased from The Shark is perfect in every way. Quality MOP inlays with no slop, multi-ply binding, excellent, thin-poly finish. I'd put this up against any Hamer in terms of fit/finish, etc. It has essentially killed my jones for a black, LP Custom.In (mercifully) closing, hey, like whatcha like. In the end, guitars are really tools for musical expression, and not every one you encounter is made with skills "acquired of the angels." BTW, ZR, that's a badass Soltero. It just looks like a quality instrument.
Turdus Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 You gotta go with what speaks to you.There is no definitive Les Paul tone, unless the player is Les Paul. Each is different. I have a '57 and '58 Historic. Fattest sounding guitars I own, but they both sound different. Had a Classic Plus. Great sounding guitar, once I swapped the bridge pickup.I've got a Japanese Epiphone LP Custom. This is a non export model, with correct headstock. It's good quality, and a playable piece. I don't find it to be on par with Gibson. It sounds thin. I've yet to find the right pickup for it.I had a Mexican Fender 70's strat that was a great guitar, but I hated the sound. I now have a Mexican Strat, which is perfect.Zinky Amps... no thanks. My bass player has one. He loves it, I don't. I've got two somewhat identical TopHats. One sounds like butter. The other like margarine.I never owned a bad Hamer, but I'm sure I am the "minority" in that I thought my Phantom smoked my Korina Standard, tone wise.
Armitage Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 Gibson get a fair amount of bashing on this board, generally by people who really have no practical experience in woodworking, finishing or luthiery. It's pretty juvenile and gets fatiguing after a while.I've owned some very nice Gibsons, mainly due to taking my time and looking around to find good ones. They are out there, you just have to search a bit. That being said, I've never met a production Gibby that didn't need a new,..Wow, I don't know what to say...
MCChris Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 Gibson get a fair amount of bashing on this board, generally by people who really have no practical experience in woodworking, finishing or luthiery. It's pretty juvenile and gets fatiguing after a while.I've owned some very nice Gibsons, mainly due to taking my time and looking around to find good ones. They are out there, you just have to search a bit. That being said, I've never met a production Gibby that didn't need a new,..Wow, I don't know what to say...Bertoglipwnt
RobB Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 Gibson get a fair amount of bashing on this board, generally by people who really have no practical experience in woodworking, finishing or luthiery. It's pretty juvenile and gets fatiguing after a while.I've owned some very nice Gibsons, mainly due to taking my time and looking around to find good ones. They are out there, you just have to search a bit. That being said, I've never met a production Gibby that didn't need a new,..Wow, I don't know what to say...BertoglipwntHow am I "pwnt?" Didn't I add an "however" qualifier to my statement? I realize my simile is quite strained but my spelling is generally excellent...Leemealone, ya pornpushin' BULLY!
MCChris Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 How am I "pwnt?" Didn't I add an "however" qualifier to my statement? I realize my simile is quite strained but my spelling is generally excellent...Leemealone, ya pornpushin' BULLY!I just like how "Bertoglipwnt" sounds in my head when I read it on the screen.You know I love ya. When are you and that firecracker friend of yours gonna join me for another liquid lunch?
RobB Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 You know I love ya. When are you and that firecracker friend of yours gonna join me for another liquid lunch? Yeah, Julie: what a lunatic. Last I heard she was unemployed and living with her parents in Glenview! Helluva burden for an aging, rock hipster. Might be able to to lunch sometime this summer. I'm in the process of tying up loose ends here in SF for my August migration to Oakland. A Chicago trip is as good an excuse as any to celebrate a move to a true, working-class city. I like Gibson guitars... Gotta say, though, when I was at GC the same time you were, Chris, the abominable quality (LP Studios, especially) would be enough to put off anyone for life. Really, really sketchy.
Dumo Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 Anybody seen that Fuzz pedal documentary with the bald guy who asks, "What's the most important thing about a piece of equipment to musicians?" "Resale!" It's pretty funny. The guy is a total bitter New Yorker a-hole but totally spot on.
MCChris Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 I like Gibson guitars... Gotta say, though, when I was at GC the same time you were, Chris, the abominable quality (LP Studios, especially) would be enough to put off anyone for life. Really, really sketchy. A black custom shop ES-175 with bare wood visible where the headstock met the neck because they didn't complete the paint job was the kicker for me.
ZR Posted January 22, 2009 Author Posted January 22, 2009 ZR, try decaf man! Haha!! You don't know how true that is!! Chris, thanks for the pix fix!! Yeah, I've had my eye on Heriatge b4 as well. Thanks for putting up with my long-winded post. It was a lot of ground to cover but I've been putting off that rant for awhile and things just kind of build up!!
lesterpaul Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 I have an Amber Classic Plus -once I had it prof. set up and swapped pickups, I can say hands down its the best player I have-each one is its own beast, of course....I have always wondered what Gib was thinking on the Classic...I mean, its supposed to be a "Classic", but they drop in those hot "modern" pickups...and almost everyone hates the snot inlays!!they can be a great grab for less $$ than a Standard, however, and they are essentially the same, minus pups and a few cosmetic differenceslove the amber-my fave color ,methinks
kevinbower1959 Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 Killer post, ZR. All I can say is that back in 1979, I was a kid with very little money, and my local music store had the greatest, most amazing selection of guitars imaginable - racks and racks of Gibsons, Fenders, Rickenbackers, Yamaha SG's, the whole deal. EVERYBODY bought these - they were just the instruments to aspire to, and I was no different, going through various Les Pauls, RD's and so on, over a 3 or 4-year period.Then one day, I walked in and saw this black Explorer hanging there on the rack with a name on the headstock no-one had ever heard of. No kudos there at all !! No pose factor !! To add insult to injury, it cost w-a-a-a-y more than a Gibson. WTF???I played it. I loved it. I bought it.A 4-digit Hamer Standard, and I never looked back........
Devnor Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 I lost some money going thru a few Les Paul Classics trying to make em play good. In hindsight I should have just bought a Hamer Sunburst. Eventually ending up with this:
LordOfTheThighs Posted January 23, 2009 Posted January 23, 2009 ZR ... no need to apologize for liking (your) Gibson. I've owned 3 LPs. A '89 Custom, '94 Classic, and '02 R8. All3 were / are very nice guitars. Some ppl like to bag on Gibson, and later pull their Hameritis, errr, Hamer out.This is a Hamer forum and as can be expected, anything other than a Hamer will probably be viewed as inferior.As I've said before, my R8 is my "stranded on a desert island" guitar. I LOVE my Hamers, but I'm also a fanof Gibson Historics. IMO, Hamers are more comparable to the Historics, in that they're both higher end pieces.
Guest pirateflynn Posted January 23, 2009 Posted January 23, 2009 As I've said before, my R8 is my "stranded on a desert island" guitar. Man, that's a looker!
ZR Posted January 23, 2009 Author Posted January 23, 2009 I lost some money going thru a few Les Paul Classics trying to make em play good. In hindsight I should have just bought a Hamer Sunburst. Eventually ending up with this: Nice looking guitar. What is it...an Edwards?
veatch Posted January 23, 2009 Posted January 23, 2009 I lost some money going thru a few Les Paul Classics trying to make em play good. In hindsight I should have just bought a Hamer Sunburst. Eventually ending up with this: "Holy Outrageous Guitar, Batman!" Er, i mean Devnor, of course.
ZR Posted January 23, 2009 Author Posted January 23, 2009 Zinky Amps... no thanks. My bass player has one. He loves it, I don't. I've got two somewhat identical TopHats. One sounds like butter. The other like margarine./quote]I wonder if it was a Blue Velvet model? I played one before and thought it sounded (and felt) flat. If it was a MOFO like I have I'd be a little surprised but I know everyone's tastes are different. Also, new tubes including some NOS really made the amp come to life so there's always so many variables.
serial Posted January 23, 2009 Posted January 23, 2009 I have absolutely no complaints with any of the Gibson Historic stuff I've had or played. My FB1 and R4 are smoking guitars that look, play and sound beautiful. I'd love to bag a cool LPC or even an SGCustom or Standard from the Historic line.
hardheartedbill Posted January 23, 2009 Posted January 23, 2009 your a guitar player in America, it's OK to rock the LP, jumpin on the bed to Celebration Day just isnt the same w/ a Studio LOL
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