hamer xt

[moparmagic]

are they worth buying one new? or would it be better to find a used hamer thats better?

[cmatthes]

Depends on what your budget is. If you're going to spend $500, you could probably still find a nice used USA Hamer for close to that.

It also depends on what you're shooting for - what style of music do you play? Do you lean towards HBs, P-90s, Single Coils? Trems? Lots of variables, but I think most everybody here would recommend waiting a bit longer, socking away the extra cash to go to a USA (used) model.

Far better choice, in my opinion.

[serial]

are they worth buying one new? or would it be better to find a used hamer thats better?

Depends on which one, I suppose. I am not familiar with many of them, but I won one in a drawing at BCR a few years back and the guitar (a double cut bolt on) is surprisingly good. I could take it out to gig with with little hesitation at all. Plays great, sounds good and stays in tune really well. Not sure what model mine is, but it's all black with black hardware. Nice guitar for a couple hundred bux, even better when it's FREE!!

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

The XT is a nice intermediate-level guitar.

It is about as good as you can get in a factory made guitar. (IMHO)

It is made to pretty much the same physical specs as a Hamer USA model.

But it is, of course, cheaper. There are many ways to make a guitar cheaper, and Hamer uses most of the reasonable ones.

1) Factory made, not hand made. This means that the playability (overall quality?) of XTs can vary from one guitar to the next.

2) Lower quality woods. Hey, mahogany is mahogany, maple is maple, alder is alder. But there is a reason Paul Reed Smith used to personally go and pick out the wood he would use. If you really know what you're doing, there is a difference between top notch and good enough. And you'll never get a AAAA+ flame on an XT.

3) Cheaper electronics and mechanicals. There isn't a huge drop-off, really. Duncan Design pickups sound pretty good, for the most part. The trems stay in tune better than most guitars, and the tuning machines stay in tune as good as anything else.

The result is that you have a good guitar that sounds good enough for bedroom practicing, jamming, and maybe even gigging (depending on your personal standards for tone). I can tell that my XT and Korean import Hamers have significantly better sustain than any bolt-on guitar I've ever tried out. And the sound and look of my XT SATF, Hamer Slammer Series Californian, and Korean import Stellar 1 are good enough that I bought and sold USAs purely as investment.

Keep in mind, however: I am idiot.

Or at the very least, I'm not that much into tone.

The best Hamers are the USA, by a large margin. But surprisingly good are the Hamer Korean imports (identified as those with just "Hamer" on the headstock). The next best are generally the Hamer Slammer series (Hamer in big letters, "slammer series" in smaller); they are also made in Korea, as I understand it. Then the 3rd best is the Chinese XT series...some individual guitars may be better than the Korean-made, some significantly worse. Then next would be the Indonesian, which would be considered excellent-quality entry models, and lowest would be the Slammer by Hamer guitars...which would be considered good-quality entry models.

For instance, the build quality on my Slammer by Hamer Centaura is quite good, and the trem stays in tune very well...but the pickup tone is just a little bit thin and annoying. And the Slammer by Hamer Special I have feels slinky and has good sustain unplugged...but I have to get in and figure out why it has no sound.

Some people feel, and I think I agree, that you could pick up one of the better XTs or (even better) a Korean import model, switch out the pickups for something better, and end up with a killer sounding and playing guitar. That's especially true for Echotone, but might be true for the Californian, and maybe the Stellar 1, too.

But if you are the type to get a guitar and start thinking of upgrades to it, you are probably best off saving for a Hamer USA. "Can't polish a turd" does apply somewhat to the XTs and Korean imports: you can improve the sound/tone immensely with professional-level pickups, but you will always be stuck with tonewoods that can't compare to a Hamer USA.

So if you truly are on a budget but have time to be patient, take an hour every single day and check every major city in Craigslist, and you might find that rare USA for $350. They are out there, if you can convince them to ship. But when/if you can't wait any longer, and if you still can't afford the $500-600 for a slightly-nicked up Hamer USA, then try a few Hamer XTs in person and choose the one you like, or wait for a good Hamer Korean import. For instance, I just picked up a Hamer Korean import Cali Deluxe (with Boomers!) for $252 (shipping included) off of eBay. Unless it is significantly worse than described, I feel like I got a deal.

The XT or Korean import is kind of like buying a Camry instead of a Lexus ES350*. You get a less powerful motor, less luxurious appointments, less care in the making, and perhaps less beauty in the styling...but they are clearly closely related, and a Camry doesn't suck.

*(if you don't like Toyota/Lexus, substitute Ford/Lincoln, Nissan/Infiniti, VW/Audi, Honda/Acura, or Chevy/Caddy as you see fit)

[mathman]

I bought a XT standard for the HFC approved price of $350 brand new. I loved the way mine played. They aren't all exactly the same but there are some nice ones for sure. I would be less likely to buy one sight unseen but if you play it you can find a nice one for a good price.

[BubbaVO]

Depends on what your budget is. If you're going to spend $500, you could probably still find a nice used USA Hamer for close to that.

... Lots of variables, but I think most everybody here would recommend waiting a bit longer, socking away the extra cash to go to a USA (used) model.

Far better choice, in my opinion.

+1. Just know what you want and hang out here. You'll find it. I finally got the Daytona I always wanted. But then there's the TLE, Vector and Standard .... oh and the DuoTone 3-hole, tobacco burst, with the BCR mod, Rio Grande buckers...then again, there's the ...

[moparmagic]

im lookin for somthin as good or better than my stellar 1. i think ill try waiting and looking for a cheap usa. im in no real big rush. and i can always save up more

[mirrorimij]

Nice guitars for the money. I would go with a used USA but that is my personal preference. The USA models have a certain feel that the imports don't have. Hamer USA really has very little/almost nothing to do with the imports in terms of design, wood selection, hardware selection, etc.

[cmatthes]

Ditto what Bob said above.

[zorrow]

Nice guitars for the money. I would go with a used USA but that is my personal preference.

+1

The USA models have a certain feel that the imports don't have. Hamer USA really has very little/almost nothing to do with the imports in terms of design, wood selection, hardware selection, etc.

Just to create some confusion now , the statement above is generally true, but my Centaura Slammer Series (made in Korea in the early nineties) can go head-to-head with many USA Hamers with the same features.

BTW, has anyone here played the newer Californian Quilt XT's? --I mean the ones which have nothing to do with the "normal" Cali model:

[Nichodemus]

I haven't tried the bolt ons, but the archtops are really good.

I tested it against a US made blackface p90 and the difference was miniscule. Sound was exactly the same, fretboard was a tiny bit better, so i grabbed the XT instead, i just didn't feel the difference was big enough to warrant a tripple price increase, even though i really hate gold tops and the blackface was sooo sweet to look at

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

Hamer USA really has very little/almost nothing to do with the imports in terms of design, wood selection, hardware selection, etc.

I don't find that to be true.

My XT SATF is the exact same design as a Hamer USA Studio.

It seems clear that Hamer gives their design to the factory they contract to produce import Hamers. Or Kaman music did. Or Kaman music authorized the import factories to reverse engineer.

However, absolutely agree on import/XT models being inferior in wood selection and hardware selection.

Bottom line: if you have an absolute standard (pun kinda intended) in mind, if you want the best, then buy a Hamer USA. Hamer USAs may seem expensive, but you get more for your money than with any other boutique guitar, IMHO. But if you just want a good guitar, Hamer USAs are 20-30% better than import/XTs, but far more than 20-30% more expensive. So comparing $ for $ and what you get, the XT/import is a better deal...as long as you recognize/accept you cannot ever fully upgrade to Hamer USA standards.

[cmatthes]

Nathan - gotta disagree with you on that.

I've owned a number of USA Standards, and they are not even in the same solar system as the imports. They are FAR beyond. I've played many imports, and although they are great compared to other guitars in their class (Epiphones, etc.), and even better than many lower end Gibsons, they can't begin to hold a candle to the USA-made models.

Try to A/B the USA and the XTs if you get the chance. I have on a number of occasions, and they are two completely different animals.

(BTW - mirrorimij probably knows what he's talking about. He actually BUILT Hamers!)

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

Nathan - gotta disagree with you on that.

I've owned a number of USA Standards, and they are not even in the same solar system as the imports. They are FAR beyond. I've played many imports, and although they are great compared to other guitars in their class (Epiphones, etc.), and even better than many lower end Gibsons, they can't begin to hold a candle to the USA-made models.

Try to A/B the USA and the XTs if you get the chance. I have on a number of occasions, and they are two completely different animals.

(BTW - mirrorimij probably knows what he's talking about. He actually BUILT Hamers!)

Well, I *am* an idiot. Freely admitted.

Edited to add:

To further cement my status as an idiot, I'll explain that I *have* A/B/C/D'd a '96 Artist Custom, a '95 Studio, a '00 Stellar 1, and a Chinese XT SATF.

Clearly, the Artist Custom is the best, and the Studio 2nd best. The XT SATF is 3rd, and the Stellar 1 last.

The shape, weight, feel of the Studio and SATF are almost identical. I've looked at the carved top, and the angles and so forth all seem the same. The neck feels the same. The tuners and pickups and bridge and knobs are in similar enough configuration as to make almost no difference.

Now, we all know the mechanicals and wood aren't as good on the SATF. And I know the cap is not as thick on the SATF as on the Studio and Artist. But if you put the three of them side-by-side, it would be clear they were related. I would think a non-Hamer expert would think the SATF and the Studio were different year models of the same guitar.

To me, that means you can't say they are not related at all in design. But I can understand that to a guitar-maker/designer, maybe there are enough differences to make it seem completely different, even if those differences are transparent to the layman.

On a scale of 1 to 100, with 1 being the worst guitar I've ever played, and 100 being the best, I'd rate them this way (based on sound, feel, and quality):

Artist: 100

Peavey Vandenberg: 91

Studio: 90

Carvin Bolt: 82

XT SATF: 80

import Cali: 79

Stellar 1: 75

Fernandes Revolver Pro: 73

JB Player guitars: 65

Fernandes X models (various): 60

Harmony Flying V: 50

Sebring superstrat: 35

Crappy Pawn Shop no-name guitars: 1

So the Artist and Studio are clearly better than the XT and the XT is better than the Stellar 1. But not three times better, but the price of a Studio or Artist is 3x as high.

Now, you can make a great argument that price/quality is on a bell curve, rather than linear chart.

But I don't think I can be shaken from my conviction that: yes, Hamer USA models are clearly superior in every way. If you want the best, save for it. If you want "good enough", an XT or Korean import Hamer is a more cost effective way of getting "good enough".

[Frank]

I have a Chinese made SATQ and it's a great guitar. I gig with it every week. It still has the Duncan Designed pickups. The only complaint that I have had is that the tuners could be better. The tone is just awesome.

[cmatthes]

For what it's worth, I also own a MIK Vector and a Velocity bass. I've gigged with the Velocity, and if I didn't have the other choices I have, would take the Vector out as well. Both are fine instruments, but again, the USA stuff is head and shoulders above. The construction, playability, quality and sound is far superior.

It's like comparing apples to spaceships...

[specialk]

For what it's worth, I also own a MIK Vector and a Velocity bass. I've gigged with the Velocity, and if I didn't have the other choices I have, would take the Vector out as well. Both are fine instruments, but again, the USA stuff is head and shoulders above. The construction, playability, quality and sound is far superior.

It's like comparing apples to spaceships...

+1!

The MIK Echotone I had is what introduced me to Hamer. It was a fine guitar, FOR THE PRICE. But it couldn't hold a candle to any of the USA Hamer's I've owned.

So try to save up for a good used USA Hamer. It will be worth it in the long run (as well as every time you pick it up to play!)

sk

[mirrorimij]

Could someone that owns an import Sunburst Archtop or Flametop Standard help me out by answering a few things. I have always wondered if:

they use the stress neck system?

the crowns are real mother of pearl?

the control cavity is shielded?

[cmatthes]

Could someone that owns an import Sunburst Archtop or Flametop Standard help me out by answering a few things. I have always wondered if:

they use the stress neck system?

the crowns are real mother of pearl?

the control cavity is shielded?

Bob -

From my recollection:

One piece necks

Plastic/Pearloid inlay

No shielding/no shielding paint.

[BCR Greg]

Oceanburst XT with WB GregWinds.

VERY capable guitar.

[zorrow]

Oceanburst XT with WB GregWinds.

VERY capable guitar.

...in the hands of a very capable player -- so that doesn't count!

[mirrorimij]

Thanks for the answers Chris. I would be willing to bet that the import korina Standard uses a 3 to 5 piece body covered in a veneer (like the Epiphone V and Explorer). Not that there is anything wrong with that. Its just when you build it that way you don't have to sort through a truckload (literally) of korina to find clean pieces. I would also be willing to bet that none of the import necks are allowed to age for months before the radius is put on the fingerboard. Doing so adds to inventory and cost. Anybody that has ever taken the HFC tour has had this very important step demonstrated and explained to them. The stressed neck system and allowing the neck to age prior to radiusing the fingerboard are the reasons why you hardly ever see a modern Hamer with a twisted neck.

Greg -that is a beautiful guitar.

Make no mistake. I'm not in any way belittling the imports. They are fine guitars and I applaud Kaman/FMIC for making them better than they need to be at that price point. I am saying that there are significant differences that justify the price. It's like comparing a Mexican Fender to a Fender custom shop or Masterbuilt. Yeah, you can gig with the Jimmie Vaughan Stratocaster (or any of them for that matter) but they don't put the attention to detail into it like they do on a $4 or $5K Masterbuilt. Just about every current Hamer USA employee is a very capable builder in EVERY step of the process. You won't find that in a typical guitar factory. I even hesitate to use the word factory when referring to New Hartford. Arlington Heights was a factory. New Hartford is a shop.

BUY USA. I'm getting off my soapbox now.

[specialk]

Arlington Heights was a factory. New Hartford is a shop.

Best way yet that I've heard it put! Thanks!

sk

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

Thanks for the answers Chris. I would be willing to bet that the import korina Standard uses a 3 to 5 piece body covered in a veneer (like the Epiphone V and Explorer). Not that there is anything wrong with that. Its just when you build it that way you don't have to sort through a truckload (literally) of korina to find clean pieces.

Greg -that is a beautiful guitar.

Make no mistake. I'm not in any way belittling the imports. They are fine guitars and I applaud Kaman/FMIC for making them better than they need to be at that price point. I am saying that there are significant differences that justify the price. It's like comparing a Mexican Fender to a Fender custom shop or Masterbuilt. Yeah, you can gig with the Jimmie Vaughan Stratocaster (or any of them for that matter) but they don't put the attention to detail into it like they do on a $4 or $5K Masterbuilt. Just about every current Hamer USA employee is a very capable builder in EVERY step of the process. You won't find that in a typical guitar factory. I even hesitate to use the word factory when referring to New Hartford. Arlington Heights was a factory. New Hartford is a shop.

BUY USA. I'm getting off my soapbox now.

I really hope that same opinion was coming across in my posts. The best there is is the Hamer USA. The imports are "good enough". You can upgrade them by sinking money into upgraded equipment. But no amount of money will ever be able to upgrade an import to the fine quality wood and workmanship that goes into a Hamer USA.

I'm beginning to think that price/quality is on a bell curve. Is a $60k luxury car 3x better than a $20k car? Can it go 3x as fast? Can it carry 3x as many people? Does it have 3x the power, 3x the acceleration? Does it use 1/3rd the gas?

No on all counts.

But if you really want the best, you will get luxury, comfort, power, smoothness, build quality, and customer support that is worth the extra cash. No amount of bling added to a $20k car will get you there; you have to save up and go for the top of the line.

Still, if all you want is "good enough", well, then the Hamer imports are the best there is for the money. Start with an XT or other import just to whet your appetite. Move up to a used Hamer USA. Then at some point you'll have to save up to order one from the Hamer shop itself.

Aside from all the workmanship, beauty, quality, and tone, one thing cannot be ignored and should be emphasized: the pre-stressed necks on the Hamer USAs mean that your USA should be able to last years longer than an import, if not decades. A Hamer USA can truly be an heirloom to pass on to the kids. I don't think an import can really be considered that way.

I love my Hamer XT, it's enough guitar for me. But I'm an easily-satisfied idiot who will never play for an audience aside from the mirror. Anyone who really wants to shoot for the best tone needs to save up for a Hamer USA.

Edited for clarity.

[kevinbower1959]

The one on the right is a full-on USA Standard from the custom shop, bought 4 months ago at a cost of $6k +. The one on the left is my spare - an XT bought off ebay for a coupla hundred, then fixed up with identical Seymour Duncans, a few aftermarket parts and an internal rewire for another coupla hundred. The overall cost of the XT was less than one-tenth of the USA equivalent.

The XT's great. It plays well, it stays in tune, and whilst it doesn't have anything like the sustain or depth or purity of tone that the hand-made boutique equivalent has, it's still extraordinarily good considering the fact that it's a cheap guitar.

Having said that, if I ever found another $6k hanging around in my pocket (!) I'd go for another USA model without a second thought. There are of course those who wouldn't, but I guess we all have to accept the fact that with any ultra-quality product, there comes a point when we enter the land of diminishing returns - the point where it's necessary to pay ten times as much for something which is only twice as good.....