A great article on Nickel-Silver vs Stainless Steel Frets

[tbonesullivan]

Saw this over on the Carvin BBS,and thought I'd share. This kinda confirms my experience with stainless steel frets. I had a carvin CT6M with them for a few years, and never bonded with it. In general, I prefer N/S frets. So, it's give and take.

http://avhguitarrepair.com/repair-blog/stainless-steel-frets-hmm/

[dragan]

interesting ! never had ss frets, worn out some regular frets with ss strings though.

[Steve Haynie]

And to think I was wanting stainless steel frets on one of my guitars! Hmmph!

Still might.

[jwhitcomb3]

I call BS. The article was written from the point of view of a guitar tech who is moaning that his fret nippers were destroyed when he used them on SS frets. He neglects to say that he could have used nippers made of a tougher alloy.

The article also alleges that stainless steel frets wear and deaden strings faster. Not in my experience (my Parker Fly, which was my #1 guitar for several years), and the only evidence provided by the author is pictures of some worn strings. Wear on guitar strings is caused by friction, which is not just a function of the hardness of the fret material, but also the smoothness of the fret surface. So while the SS frets are harder, they are also smoother. Is the tradeoff equal? I don't know for sure, but in my experience, even when using gold wound strings, there was no appreciable difference in string wear or deadening.

I wouldn't rip out my nickel-silver frets and replace them with stainless, but when ordering my new Carvin, I was happy to shell out the additional $30 for the SS frets.

[diablo175]

I call BS. The article was written from the point of view of a guitar tech who is moaning that his fret nippers were destroyed when he used them on SS frets. He neglects to say that he could have used nippers made of a tougher alloy.

The article also alleges that stainless steel frets wear and deaden strings faster. Not in my experience (my Parker Fly, which was my #1 guitar for several years), and the only evidence provided by the author is pictures of some worn strings. Wear on guitar strings is caused by friction, which is not just a function of the hardness of the fret material, but also the smoothness of the fret surface. So while the SS frets are harder, they are also smoother. Is the tradeoff equal? I don't know for sure, but in my experience, even when using gold wound strings, there was no appreciable difference in string wear or deadening.

I wouldn't rip out my nickel-silver frets and replace them with stainless, but when ordering my new Carvin, I was happy to shell out the additional $30 for the SS frets.

+1. I have noted numerous benefits to SS frets and none of the drawbacks but I'm not on the luthier/tech end of that process. I paid about the same to have the SS frets put in on my Python Cali as I would've for nickel with a number of other techs. Maybe a 10% mark up for the wire but his base fee for fret job was still 50 bucks cheaper than most others.

[dragan]

I could see wearing out strings as a non issue , if your playing 3-5 nights a week your prob changing them every other day or every day anyway depending on style ,especially if your using a floyd vib. I did like the idea of more emphasis on fret dressing though!

[tbonesullivan]

I call BS. The article was written from the point of view of a guitar tech who is moaning that his fret nippers were destroyed when he used them on SS frets. He neglects to say that he could have used nippers made of a tougher alloy.

The article also alleges that stainless steel frets wear and deaden strings faster. Not in my experience (my Parker Fly, which was my #1 guitar for several years), and the only evidence provided by the author is pictures of some worn strings. Wear on guitar strings is caused by friction, which is not just a function of the hardness of the fret material, but also the smoothness of the fret surface. So while the SS frets are harder, they are also smoother. Is the tradeoff equal? I don't know for sure, but in my experience, even when using gold wound strings, there was no appreciable difference in string wear or deadening.

I wouldn't rip out my nickel-silver frets and replace them with stainless, but when ordering my new Carvin, I was happy to shell out the additional $30 for the SS frets.

And where would these "harder nippers" be found? I looked all around, and have not found any fret cutters listed as being for use with Stainless Steel frets. Many people have to resort to using supplies intended for dental use, as they are made to cut stainless, however they are also quite a bit more expensive and not easy to obtain. The Fret cutters sold by Stewmac are specifically not recommended for stainless. They also have no tools that are mentioned to be "good for stainless". It looks like many people end up having to size their frets before putting them on the guitar, by sanding them down slowly. If they use a bench grinder they can heat up the frets too much and disturb the metal structure.

I have personal experience with SS frets, having own a SS-equipped Carvin CT6M for several years, and the thing did eat through strings. It was kind of good because sometimes I don't like that more "jangly" sound that fresh strings get, but intonation suffered as the diameter of the string became less uniform. Just because there less friction felt doesn't change how much wear there is. Try using SS strings on a bass with NS frets. They slide really smooth over the NS frets. And then you'll find that you've got divots. It's just a harder material, and when you have two materials of differing hardness, one will wear the other.

[tbonesullivan]

I could see wearing out strings as a non issue , if your playing 3-5 nights a week your prob changing them every other day or every day anyway depending on style ,especially if your using a floyd vib. I did like the idea of more emphasis on fret dressing though!

Well this is one of the points where they excell. If you are EVH or another guitar player who uses a lot of strings, it isn't an issue. EVH talks about boiling his strings before putting them on the guitar so they don't need stretching. He then says he's heard that can make them rust, but he went on to say "but I only use them for one day anyway".

I'm not ANTI SS frets, but I don't believe the hype that they are somehow the end all be all of frets. Everything is a compromise in the end, and SS as a material has been available for a long time.

What really chaps my ass is everyone going on about how "there is absolutely no sound difference". Then other people go on and on about how much better a bone nut, or a brass nut, or a nylon nut, or mammoth ivory nut makes their guitar sound, when it's only in play when the guitar is playing open strings.

[jwhitcomb3]

And where would these "harder nippers" be found? I looked all around, and have not found any fret cutters listed as being for use with Stainless Steel frets.

Took me about 20 seconds to find these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lu-thier-Tool-Fret-End-Nippers-Stainless-Steel-Frets-/130901300169?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item1e7a5353c9#ht_291wt_1337

[jwhitcomb3]

I call BS. The article was written from the point of view of a guitar tech who is moaning that his fret nippers were destroyed when he used them on SS frets. He neglects to say that he could have used nippers made of a tougher alloy.

The article also alleges that stainless steel frets wear and deaden strings faster. Not in my experience (my Parker Fly, which was my #1 guitar for several years), and the only evidence provided by the author is pictures of some worn strings. Wear on guitar strings is caused by friction, which is not just a function of the hardness of the fret material, but also the smoothness of the fret surface. So while the SS frets are harder, they are also smoother. Is the tradeoff equal? I don't know for sure, but in my experience, even when using gold wound strings, there was no appreciable difference in string wear or deadening.

I wouldn't rip out my nickel-silver frets and replace them with stainless, but when ordering my new Carvin, I was happy to shell out the additional $30 for the SS frets.

Just because there less friction felt doesn't change how much wear there is.

So, for example, a smooth stainless steel blade will cut better than a nickel-silver sawtooth edge?

Friction is a major component in wear. Steel rotosound strings wear nickel-silver frets because they are hard and they are rough. A nickel-silver fret will have less friction when it is polished. So if you keep your nickel-silver frets polished regularly, you'll have less friction. Or you could use stainless steel frets.

[tbonesullivan]

And where would these "harder nippers" be found? I looked all around, and have not found any fret cutters listed as being for use with Stainless Steel frets.

Took me about 20 seconds to find these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lu-thier-Tool-Fret-End-Nippers-Stainless-Steel-Frets-/130901300169?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item1e7a5353c9#ht_291wt_1337

"You are bidding on a Lu theirs fret nippers. To remove and install nickel silver and Stainless Steel "

Yeah... looks really good when you can't spell Luthier right.

[tbonesullivan]

Another interesting read, and here's a key quotation:

http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Electric-Guitars/Did-my-first-Stainless-Steel-fretwire-refret-today-lots-of-pics/td-p/14360755

"If anyone is wondering what differences I noticed thus far between this SS wire and regular NS wire, at this point I had noticed a few things. Once, this wire is harder to cut. Takes a bit more muscle to snip, and it's already starting to kill the edge on my cutters, and they're designed for SS wire (got them from Lmii, they're flush ground, made by Channel Lock). I imagine I could probably get one or maybe two more SS refrets out of them before they're toast, but we'll see."

[tbonesullivan]

Ahh.. here they are.

http://www.lmii.com/products/tools-services/fretting/end-or-fret-cutters

Seeing as the LMII fret end cutters for SS frets cost around $60, I wouldn;t put much faith in the Lu Theirs cutters off ebay.

[murkat]

Cutters are just one tool to the whole scheme of SS tooling.

Files,

Crowns

Deburs

Rounders

and... sand papers...

then there's the polishing.

I should post a pic of my once nice nippers...

[MCChris]

I should post a pic of my once nice nippers...

That gave me a semi....

[anotherfreak]

"What you will receive in shipping

1 / Extra Harden Steel / Long handle fret nipper Custom ground on a Tornado Diamond wheel. That will cut flat to the finger board for stainless steel frets.

These cutters were the winners in cutting stainless steel frets."

[shredmeister]

Have had SS frets on 2 guitars now. Played the shit out of both of 'em and I don't notice any difference at all. SS maybe a bit smoother feeling if you use vibrato a lot. Or that could be in my head ! I don't notice any sound difference.

[tbonesullivan]

HAH. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not against SS frets, I'm just against the idea that they are the end all be all of frets, and that anyone who doesn't use them is a luddite, which is a lot of what I get around here. I also am so tired of hearing the conspiracy theories involving guitar techs/luthiers that want to keep these magical SS frets from us to keep themselves employed doing expensive refret jobs.

Not having to get refrets, and having to get fret dressing very seldom is nice. But there are some aspects that may cause people to choose one over the other. Then there is also EVO fretwire. Classical guitars are usually made with a softer Nickel Silver alloy because they feel it is "easier on the strings".

The level of annealing and crystal structure also can have a big effect on the overall hardness of the SS frets. This of course depends on the maker and how many drawing passes it takes for them to make the wire. Contrary to what some people think, companies like Jescar do not make the alloys, they just make them into frets.

[dragan]

having never owned a gtr w/ ss frets , I'm curious to know how & if they do change the tone of a gtr ? I'm of the opinion that all construction methods,parts & electronics have some effect on tone. any body go from one to another on the same gtr ? with what effect to tone ?

[tbonesullivan]

having never owned a gtr w/ ss frets , I'm curious to know how & if they do change the tone of a gtr ? I'm of the opinion that all construction methods,parts & electronics have some effect on tone. any body go from one to another on the same gtr ? with what effect to tone ?

I think some may have done comparisons, but its all very subjective. However, changing the bridge material makes a difference in sound. Changing the string material makes a difference in sound. People go nuts over the material used for the nuts, even though they are only in play when the open string is played. Many even claim that the fretboard has a big effect on sound. Given that the fret is the part of the guitar directly interfacing with the string, it has to make a difference.

The question is whether it makes enough of a difference to matter on an electric guitar, which in general doesn't have much in the very high end anyway. most guitar amplifiers also have speakers that rarely have much frequency response above 5.5khz.

Here is some thoughts on SS frets on acoustics from Bob Taylor, of Taylor guitars:

http://www.taylorguitars.com/blog/ask-bob/ask-bob-stainless-steel-frets-ceramic-nutsaddle

And of course if you look around you'll find lots of people crying that it's just Taylor not wanting to tool up for SS, and that it's all BS. Well, I guess it depends on how good your hearing is.

http://www.taylorguitars.com/blog/ask-bob/ask-bob-stainless-steel-frets-ceramic-nutsaddle

[jwhitcomb3]

With all the different variables of any guitar that contribute to the tone, it would be pretty hard to attribute any aspect of the tone to SS frets. I suppose you could do a double blind test by recording tones with SS frets, ripping them out and replacing them with NS frets, then re-testing. My guess is most couldn't tell the difference.

My new Carvin HF2S is my third guitar with SS frets. I've had it less than a week, and have broken one string, but that was at the tuner post after umpteen times loosening and tightening when setting up the bridge height.

My Parker Fly and Composite Acoustics guitars also had SS frets, and I had no problems with either breakage or dead strings. Just stupid skinny necks, which I don't think were any fault of the frets.

As for the luthiers complaining, well, every industry has to retool when technology advances. And I'm pretty sure moaning about it is SOP.

[tbonesullivan]

Stainless steel is hardly a new material. The only thing "new" is the idea to use it as a fret material. I would hardly call it "advanced".

Now those quartz crystal frets... those are pretty advanced.

[aknapp]

Stainless steel is hardly a new material. The only thing "new" is the idea to use it as a fret material. I would hardly call it "advanced".

Now those quartz crystal frets... those are pretty advanced.

At first, I was thinking, "quartz crystal frets??? That's crazy talk!"

Then I did a search; interesting concept, if ya got the scratch for it!!!

[zenmindbeginner]

I use stainless steel strings, so this article was very interesting to me.

[svl]

SS, nickel, it's all crap.

I use Adamantium. Best there is, bub.