What's the Hamer of 4K TVs?

[Lockbody]

I'm saving $80 a month after dropping DirecTV today. Time for a TV upgrade.

My current TV is a 46" Sony Bravia KDL-EX710 edge-lit LED LCD. It was a decent enough TV for its time, but one thing about which bugged me to no end was the backlight bleeding around the edges, especially in the corners. Watching a movie such as Gravity was frustrating, to say the least. So no more edge-lit TVs for me.

What I want is the Huber of 4Ks, the LD OLED TV, but at $2500 for the least expensive 55" model, I'm not sure I can swing Lockbodywife on one. It didn't help matters that the last time we were at Best Buy I took her over to look at one and they didn't have any 4K content running on the floor model. She said, "That $700 4K over there has a better looking picture than the LG!" and she was right, because BB had a 4K Blue Ray hooked up to it, and it did look much nicer. But I've read the reviews. The OLEDs are almost unmatched in picture quality.

But they're also expensive.

So who makes a good 4K TV that won't break the bank? I've read so many review on Best Buy and Amazon I'm blue in the face. For every positive review I read of a Sony, Samsung, or LG LCD TV I read, there's a negative saying you'd be a fool to buy it.

55" is about all I need for the space it'll go in. We sit about  8-10' from it. Moderately bright room in the afternoon, but shaded most other times. NO edge-lighting. Tuner a must, which leaves out recent Vizios. I guess any new 4K will have HDR, but both HDR10 and Dolby Vision would be nice.

[JohnnyB]

The best picture I've seen these days is the Samsung SUHD (Smart Ultra High Definition) series. Really really sharp with great color saturation. For your viewing distance I'd recommend 60" to 65" if you can swing it financially. If you find prices at Best Buy too challenging, consider trying Sam's Club. The annual membership fee will give you an instant return on investment (and then some) if you get a Samsung SUHD from them. That's the Hamer of HDTVs, with that two levels of extra refinement.

[django49]

Second on that Samsung. I had to compromise with the smaller version, as the better half wanted "neat", as in fitting inside the nook in the wall in the family room. (Left to my own devices, I would build an extension out of that nook with 2 legs for support and mount a 65" right in front of the wall). But, for now, we are stuck with a 48". It is WAY too small for that area, but the picture is a huge improvement.

Virtually everything we view with it is not actual 4k content, but the automatic upgrade of regular HD material is great. Costco is another good source, though we bought at a local chain.....Video Only.

[Jeff R]

Another Samsung SUHD/Smart TV owner. Got one earlier this year when its predecessor crapped out. We have the 55" and love it. 

[JohnnyB]

6 hours ago, django49 said:

Virtually everything we view with it is not actual 4k content, but the automatic upgrade of regular HD material is great. Costco is another good source, though we bought at a local chain.....Video Only.

I've seen plenty of 4K TVs with standard HD feeds, and most of them are good at upconverting to create a sharper, more saturated picture than the regular HDTVS sitting next to them. The SUHD versions are a step beyond that, but so far I'm only seeing them with canned demo loops. Still, since they're "smart" they probably upconvert effectively too.

I meant to mention Costco as well. I bought my first HDTV in 2006 at Video Only and my second in 2011 at Costco. As you mention Vid Only is only in Washington, Oregon, and California, and wouldn't have helped the OP in Alabama.

[Lockbody]

What models Samsungs do you guys own?

[django49]

JS8500 series here. As always, there is a constant stream of replacements. This review is a year old. As best I know, the KS8000 is the one year newer equivalent. The J or K represents the model year.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/js8500

A year ago, it looked like the 9000 series (or 9500) was a nice step up, but dramatically more expensive.

[JohnnyB]

3 hours ago, Lockbody said:

What models Samsungs do you guys own?

Actually, I don't own a Samsung SUHD. I got one of the last Panasonic plasma TVs in 2011. But the Samsung SUHDs really turn my head when I walk by them at Sam's or Costco. UHD (4K) came along more than a year after I bought my Panasonic plasma. UHD TVs were significantly more expensive than HDTVs for a few years, but have now dropped in price lower than HDTVs were in 2011. SUHD just came out this year.  Samsung SUHD TVs are significantly more than UHD, but that gap seems to be narrowing a bit.

BTW, if the SUHD TVs are a bit much, among the UHD TVs, the Samsungs are also very impressive. It might be worth getting a 60-65" UHD over a smaller UHD at the same price.

[cynic]

Another recommendation for Costco because it's very easy to find incredible deals on two or three generations old tv's that are leaps and bounds ahead of whatever might currently be in your home.

I still scoff at the size, but I too ended up with one of the 60" Panasonic plasmas JohnnyB mentioned above.  At $10 per inch, it was just too good a deal to pass up.  Unless you're looking to create a "viewing experience", 55" should be more than enough for your space.  Our viewing distance ranges anywhere from 13-18' in the living room, with anyone in the kitchen enjoying the same picture from up to 35' away.

Avoid reading much about the newest tech so you can let yourself enjoy the "old" stuff.  Electronics is an area where ignorance can be blissfully inexpensive.

[Lockbody]

46 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

Actually, I don't own a Samsung SUHD. I got one of the last Pansonic plasma TVs in 2011. But the Samsung SUHDs really turn my head when I walk by them at Sam's or Costco. UHD (4K) came along more than a year later. They were significantly more expensive than HD for a few years, but have now dropped in price lower than HD TVs were in 2011. SUHD just came out this year.  Samsung SUHD TVs are significantly more than UHD, but that gap seems to be narrowing a bit.

BTW, if the SUHD TVs are a bit much, among the UHD TVs, the Samsungs are also very impressive. It might be worth getting a 60-65" UHD over a smaller UHD at the same price.

The SUHDs are the "Quantum Dot" models, aren't they?

As for price, the 65" SUHD is still $500 less than the 55" OLED at Best Buy. The 55" 8-series SUHD is a whopping $1100 less than the last sale price of the 55" OLED.

[Spadeace]

Panasonic

[Lockbody]

4 hours ago, django49 said:

JS8500 series here. As always, there is a constant stream of replacements. This review is a year old. As best I know, the KS8000 is the one year newer equivalent. The J or K represents the model year.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/js8500

A year ago, it looked like the 9000 series (or 9500) was a nice step up, but dramatically more expensive.

If I got anything from this thread it was how awesome rtings.com is for TV reviews!

They rank the Samsung KS8000s only second if you can't swing a LG OLED. At almost half the price of the 55" OLED, it looks like JohnnyB was right on with them being the Hamer of 4Ks. It IS edge-lit, but there's no mention of any light bleed issues that my Sony has.

All that said, the LG OLED simply spanks all the other TVs in just about every category.

[scottcald]

21 hours ago, django49 said:

Second on that Samsung. I had to compromise with the smaller version, as the better half wanted "neat", as in fitting inside the nook in the wall in the family room. (Left to my own devices, I would build an extension out of that nook with 2 legs for support and mount a 65" right in front of the wall). But, for now, we are stuck with a 48". It is WAY too small

Yeah, when we got our first flat screen, in the store, 42" seemed huge.  At home it's OK, but definitely going to 65" or maybe even 70" when we replace it.  

[scottcald]

6 hours ago, Lockbody said:

If I got anything from this thread it was how awesome rtings.com is for TV reviews!

They rank the Samsung KS8000s only second if you can't swing a LG OLED. At almost half the price of the 55" OLED, it looks like JohnnyB was right on with them being the Hamer of 4Ks. It IS edge-lit, but there's no mention of any light bleed issues that my Sony has.

All that said, the LG OLED simply spanks all the other TVs in just about every category.

I've always liked the LGs when I or others have gotten them.  

[JohnnyB]

Lockbody: How about this at Costco? Samsung 55" 4K SUHD LED LCD TV, 240 Hz refresh. On sale for $1379.99 with free shipping. Fairly thin profile, too. 

For standard 4K UHD LCD/LED TV you can get a 65" Samsung on sale for somewhat less ($1349.99 w/free shipping).

 

[Lockbody]

8 hours ago, JohnnyB said:

Lockbody: How about this at Costco? Samsung 55" 4K SUHD LED LCD TV, 240 Hz refresh. On sale for $1379.99 with free shipping. Fairly thin profile, too. 

 

 

That's the one. The KS8000 and Costco's KS800D are the same TV. It's just a different part # for the big-box stores.

I've got to read up on it like I have with the LG OLED. I just don't want buyer's remorse after dropping $1500 (after tax) on a TV.

[velorush]

21 hours ago, Lockbody said:

What models Samsungs do you guys own?

Our 29" Sony CRT TV went out in 2007, so I bought the Samsung LN-T4661F at an all-in cost of $22,000. 

That's not a typo, but a bit of a comedy of errors: the 29" TV fit into an entertainment center so old it was made for a 29" TV with a 4:3 aspect ratio.  The furniture finish was no longer available, so we had to replace all of the furniture when we replaced the entertainment center.  With that, we decided to replace the carpet in that room with hardwood (to match much of the rest of the house), but the doors and windows in that room were not Andersen (as we had in the rest of the house) and we knew the cheaper windows / door would allow the floor to fade.  So, new Andersen door, windows, about 400 square feet of hardwood, paint, furniture and the new TV, around $22,000.  

The one thing about this (now, really old) TV is that the screen refresh rate is only 60 Hz.  Samsung came out with 120 Hz about two months after we purchased it.  It's fine except in fast action sequences where it begins to pixelate.  That said, I'd buy another Samsung in a heartbeat.  We purchased this one through Crutchfield.

[JohnnyB]

2 hours ago, Lockbody said:

That's the one. The KS8000 and Costco's KS800D are the same TV. It's just a different part # for the big-box stores.

I've got to read up on it like I have with the LG OLED. I just don't want buyer's remorse after dropping $1500 (after tax) on a TV.

Here's a SUHD/OLED comparison. What it seems to come down to is that LG OLED has the more impressive black level, but has noticeably juddery motion. The Samsung SUHD has smooth action but not quite as deep black levels. Also, the Samsung SUHDs are about 60% of the price of LG OLEDs.

In the showroom, deep black levels always look the most impressive, but for in-home use, its importance depends on how bright the room is. Also, for these higher hi-def TVs, the stores often use slow changing scenery which doesn't expose TVs with judder problems. Judder is very annoying in any amount or absence of light. It takes you out of the action and distracts you to artifacts of the depiction of the action. Black level (to a point) is more benign, especially in a darkened room, ane especially if the screen refresh is quick. That's what I liked about plasma. When I bought it, the LED TVs were 120 Hz at most and often 60 Hz. Plasma TVs are about ten times that.

I've already had my Panasonic plasma TV for five years. Even though I see the SUHDs when I go to Costco or Sam's, and am impressed by the picture, when I get home and turn on the Panasonic, I don't feel like I'm missing anything and have no plans to replace it soon. My first HDTV was a rear-projection 720p Toshiba bought in 2006. It required a $250-300 bulb replacement every 2-3 years. By the time it was five years old I could hardly wait to get rid of it. I donated it to Goodwill the same day I brought the Panasonic home.

BTW, if you want long-running satisfaction, given your viewing distance your money might be better spent on a 60" or 65" screen. I have a 60" screen and 8' viewing distance, and it's just big enough, but I'd like a 65" even better. I visited my brother in May and he has a 50" TV and a 10-12' viewing distance. He also had a soundbar that wasn't compatible with the TV so he had the captions on all the time. Not much fun.

To benefit from the higher resolution, you have to sit close enough to benefit from it. Here are Crutchfield's formulae for diagonal screen measurement vs. viewing distance, both for HD and UHD. 

[Lockbody]

There's trade offs between the two everywhere. While the judder score is lower on the LG than the Samsung, motion blur on the LG is non-existent, whereas the Sumsung is merely average. Judder can be minimized on the 2016 OLED, too, but it is a concern. Temporary image burn-in is also another concern on the OLED, such as playing a video game for a long time with a static element. It isn't permanent, but it is an issue that rears it head from time to time.

I've been seeing some edge-bleed reviews with the Samsung. That would be something that would really PO me if it happens to me, since it's really one of the main gripes I have with my Bravia. We were watching Rio Bravo last night, which has a lot of action that takes place at night, and the glow from the corners was very irritating.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/ks8000

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b6

 

55" is really the sweet spot for where the TV is located. Anyway, looking at the Crutchfield site, they recommend 4.6-6.9 feet for viewing distance for 55" 4K TV. I remeasured mine, and I'm right at 7-8 feet. I can deal, or scoot my recliners a tad closer.

[Lockbody]

JohnnyB said it best. 

[Jeff R]

I think that's the exact same unit and size we have, so great call

On an vaguely related as you can get note, here's a photograph of the screen of mine when I attempted to replicate my "real" ride on PS4's "Need for Speed."

[Lockbody]

1 hour ago, Jeff R said:

I think that's the exact same unit and size we have, so great call

 

I think so, too.

After getting it setup, I spent a few minutes plugging in some recommended picture calibration settings found on a few of the AV forums and fired up Daredevil in 4K HDR on Netflix. 

Wow! Even the wife said "Now THAT'S a pretty picture. The lighting, color, sharpness, smoothness, and realism was just quantum leap ahead of our old Bravia. I pulled up the hallway fight scene from S1-E2 (a one-shot fight scene that may be one of the best ever put to film, BTW), and it was like watching it for the first time. Simply spectacular. 

Everything looks great, from 4K to 480p over-the-air broadcasts. I couldn't imagine the Olympics on either PlayStation Vue, or OTA looking much better. The Samsung even managed to pull in about 20 more OTA channels than our old Sony. 

The Hamer of 4K TVs indeed!

[django49]

This is too-late breaking news, but this afternoon's mail has the latest Costco monthly bulletin.....Looks like there will be an extra discount on the 65" version starting August 28. That would bring the price (in warehouse) down from the "list" of $2580 to $1780. I do not know if "list" is useful, except as a reference point, as their selling price (before 8/28) is $1980. But WTH, $200 less than before.

Just might be time to break down and replace the OLD projection screen in our "guest apartment/rehearsal space", The old one probably cost closer to $5k when it was "state of the art". The projector bulb is still working, but it is a matter of time. And the Samsung kicks its ass in every possible way, Hard to justify paying a couple hundred (I assume) to keep the 10-12 year old one running.

Under the "no free lunch" tab, it is probably reasonable to expect a 2017 version to be out this fall, maybe with a few new improvements.

[HSB0531]

LG is coming out with a wafer thin double sided OLED.

The mount and electronics are in the top center.

I kid you not.

 

[Armitage]

On 8/19/2016 at 0:47 PM, Lockbody said:

55" is really the sweet spot for where the TV is located. Anyway, looking at the Crutchfield site, they recommend 4.6-6.9 feet for viewing distance for 55" 4K TV. I remeasured mine, and I'm right at 7-8 feet. I can deal, or scoot my recliners a tad closer.

I'm looking at the site right now and for 4K they say you could do a 70-85" screen for 8 feet...

I imagine if you watched an old VHS on it, everything would look like a Lego Movie.  

[velorush]

On 8/25/2016 at 8:04 PM, HSB0531 said:

LG is coming out with a wafer thin double sided OLED.

The mount and electronics are in the top center.

I kid you not.

Insane!

 

ETA: Just realized the first of those videos is just under a year old and the second is from January of this year.  I've got to do a better job of keeping up!