Bending Stability on Floating Fulcrum Tremolos

[tbonesullivan]

While not a whammy monster, sometimes I do like to use a trem for some vibrato, or strange sound effects. However I'm also a big bend person, especially "boomer bends" involving double stops, or bending up the third. Having to bend both strings is a PITA.  I sold both of my floyd equipped guitars because it just annoyed me how bending one up string up a step seemed to lower the others an equal amount. I'm also putting my Music Man Luke III back to "decked" because it's almost just as sensitive.

This was especially annoying because I have two G&L Legacy guitars, both with floating dual fulcrum tremolos, and I can bend on those and get very little movement on the other strings. I don't know if it's due to the angles involved, or something else, but they are just more stable on bends. I also recently got the a PRS CE 24, and it also is quite stable on bends. I can see why people like the PRS tremolo so much.

I know I could always get a trem setter or some other type of locking thingy, but that often involves extra modifications and I'm lazy. I just want it to work. Are there any other floating trem setups that work really well in terms of bending stability?

[chromium]

Would higher tension and/or additional trem springs (assuming you are not running with all five springs) help counter the additional string tension when bending?  

I have yet to experiment with this, but wanted to try it on one of my Floyded guitars (all top mount, floating)

[gtrdaddy]

Load all 5 springs and you'll be fine.

[Dave Scepter]

20 minutes ago, gtrdaddy said:

Load all 5 springs and you'll be fine.

It's floating 

[gtrdaddy]

18 minutes ago, Dave Scepter said:

It's floating 

Using all five springs greatly improves stability.

[JGale]

2 hours ago, gtrdaddy said:

Using all five springs greatly improves stability.

Use all five. 

or

[tbonesullivan]

Hmmm, well I should have some springs around. I opened up the back of the PRS, and it's got 4 springs.  The Luke III has three, but so do the G&L Legacy guitars. The pivot on them must be magical.

Anyone have a good recommendation for springs? Having bought some in the past, it seems like some have a much higher "spring constant" than others, so they pull a lot harder. If I'm going up to 5 springs with a bit less pull might make things easier.

[JGale]

14 minutes ago, tbonesullivan said:

Hmmm, well I should have some springs around. I opened up the back of the PRS, and it's got 4 springs.  The Luke III has three, but so do the G&L Legacy guitars. The pivot on them must be magical.

Anyone have a good recommendation for springs? Having bought some in the past, it seems like some have a much higher "spring constant" than others, so they pull a lot harder. If I'm going up to 5 springs with a bit less pull might make things easier.

[JGale]

Edited to add: Spring Constant is correct. It is the K in F=Kx as long as the response envelope is in the linear range.

[tbonesullivan]

Just read up about them, and they sound like exactly what I need. I just ordered two sets. They are cheapest direct from Xotic / Raw Vintage.

[burningyen]

The Raw Vintage springs won't necessarily help unless you put enough on that the end result is stiffer than what you have been using. Stiffer springs, and more of them, is the answer if you want to keep the trem floating. If putting on all 5 springs makes the trem decked, then unscrew the claw screws until the trem floats again. Note that this will make the trem deflect less and detune the other strings less when you bend, but it won't eliminate it entirely. If you need it gone entirely then you have to use a Tremsetter type of solution.

[tbonesullivan]

1 hour ago, burningyen said:

The Raw Vintage springs won't necessarily help unless you put enough on that the end result is stiffer than what you have been using. Stiffer springs, and more of them, is the answer if you want to keep the trem floating. If putting on all 5 springs makes the trem decked, then unscrew the claw screws until the trem floats again. Note that this will make the trem deflect less and detune the other strings less when you bend, but it won't eliminate it entirely. If you need it gone entirely then you have to use a Tremsetter type of solution.

I definitely have no problem with a stiffer trem. I use it mainly for vibrato or bombs. I'm not like Jeff Beck who has his hand on the bar all the time, shaping every note. I actually wonder how many springs he is using.

I also found out that PRS apparently uses lower tension springs on their tremolos, which is why it has 4 springs and seems to be more stable. Could also be the fulcrum design. Not sure.

[Dutchman]

Just to make things more confusing.. 

This is from here:

Z-Talk! - Ask Carl Verheyen

"I have worked on this concept for many years and I have found it is all about equalizing and balancing the tension between SPRINGS AND STRINGS. Here follows the information sent with my signature "Balanced Bridge" strings made by Thomastik-Infeld in Vienna, Austria.
Verheyen Stratocaster Full Floating Tremolo Bridge Setup

For the last 20 years the Fender Stratocaster has been my main guitar. When working with the bridge setup I always strive for the most musical and in-tune mechanical operation I can find. I’ve asked hundreds of players about their setup and over the years I’ve come up with my own method that always returns to pitch and has many musical benefits as well. The method described works best when the tuners are working properly, the nut has been properly cut so string don’t bind, the neck truss rod properly adjusted and the six (or 2) mounting screws that fasten the bridge plate provide proper freedom of movement.


At the heart of the setup is balancing spring tension with string tension by adjusting the two long spring tension adjusting screws at the “claw” to which the tremolo springs are attached to the steel tremolo block. Use 3 springs from the tremolo block to the claw: furthest position left, furthest position right and center; do NOT set the outside springs at an angle.
1) Begin by adjusting the 2 screws of the claw so that when you pull UP on the tremolo arm and the bridge is in contact with the body the G string pulls up a minor 3rd. This will make the B string rise a whole step and the E string a half step. The mechanics of the system should first make musical sense. You will end up with an “Angled Claw” which is exactly what you’re looking for.
2) Next, adjust the screw on the bass side of the claw (closest to the low E string) so that when you pull up on the tremolo arm and the bridge is in contact with the body, the A and D string when fretted at the 5th fret (D and G) rise a whole step to E and A.
3) You may have to go back and forth a few times between the two adjusting screws until the bridge is stable and the intervals described are true. And you’ll need to correct the intonation by adjusting the bridge saddles.
4) When all is right and balanced between springs and strings, the Am7 barre chord on the 5th fret should sound like it is descending musically to an Abm7 when the bar is slightly depressed. It won't be perfect but it's a very musical sound you're after and should achieve. This effect is ideal for “shaking” chords and applying a manual tremolo to your voicings.
5) I use a Teflon lubricant (sold in electronic shops) under the strings at the nut slots and where the strings contact the string tree(s). You only need to use a little lube; wipe away any excess.
6) I try to use the minimum windings on the string posts, preferring just one if possible. My bass strings leave the post at the top; my trebles wind down and leave the post at the bottom.
7) There is a short video of me explaining the whole process at
VIDEO Carl Verheyen's Strat set-up 1.01 It was recorded a few years back in Amsterdam …….it may also help!

All the best,

Carl Verheyen

[RobB]

Just deck it and be done with it. 

[diablo175]

20 hours ago, Dutchman said:

At the heart of the setup is balancing spring tension with string tension by adjusting the two long spring tension adjusting screws at the “claw” to which the tremolo springs are attached to the steel tremolo block. Use 3 springs from the tremolo block to the claw: furthest position left, furthest position right and center; do NOT set the outside springs at an angle.
 

Yeah, I'm going to have to say, "glad that works for you, Carl... but ya lost me at do NOT set the outside springs at an angle. "