Minimum amount/type of mics for recording drums?

[unfun75]

I have two SM57's, may borrow or buy a pair of small condensers. Do I have to have a bass mic? How should I setup the mics? I plan to record a couple of songs with my old band over the Christmas break so I have about a month to prepare.

[Lockbody]

"Back in the day", I used to get decent 4-track recordings with just two dynamic mics over the drummer's shoulders. Great for catching his backing vocals, too.

With two SM57s (no, you really don't need a dedicated kick mic) and two condensers I'd put one SM57 in front of the kick (reverse the phase if your mixer will do it) one on the snare, and the two condensers directly over the middle of the kit in a X/Y pattern (the capsules almost touching kinda like /\ but at a 90degree angle).

[zenmindbeginner]

I would say that the majority of getting a good drum sound is a properly tuned and maintained drum set that has heads with sufficient life in them. A properly tuned snare will not require tape to fix the rattle whenever you hit the floor tom. I wouldn't be shy about covering your drumset with tape if you have to, because unwanted ring and rattling can ruin a drum track if tuning them still leaves some undesired resonances or noises.

Then you will need to have a clean signal path with well functioning microphone cables and the stands with which to have maximum flexibility in placement. None of this requires much money to do.

Phase and microphone placement is probably another ultra important factor in whether or not your drums sound the way that you want them to or not. Play the drums, record some beats... listen to the timbre and loudness of the result and keep moving the mics around a bit until you find the sweet spot. This could take up to a full day of recording if you have a large kit. I would HIGHLY encourage you to take your time here... phase can make or break a track.

Then, the mics... I could record a whole drum kit with 8 or 9 SM57s and the track would sound incredible.

What you want to is use the two condenser mics to get the best stereo print that you can from the drum kit. An XY configuration will do the trick... mid side stereo is the best but is a bit tricky if you are a beginner or a novice and requires different capsules. Again, spend a while recording tracks, listening back, moving the mics and repeating until your stereo drum tracks sound REAL good... I mean, make sure that every drum is heard and that there is sufficient loudness and that the timbre is what you are looking for. Also make sure that they cymbals sound good as well as the kickdrum because they will only be represented by the stereo pair of condensers.

Then, take one SM57 and take the time to get your dream snare sound. Play with the mic placement but keep the SM57 as close to the drum as is possible.

Then, you will have one SM57 left... if you play Metal or real hard rock, you might want to use it as a close kick drum mic (right inside the beater as close to the head as possible) so that your kick drum can cut through a wall full of scooped and distorted guitar and bass. If you don't, then you could be well served to reinforce the hi hat with the other SM57 to get that splashy hi hat that the ladies love.

[Siaip Ciuvas]

what above posts said and 2 cents from my experience. Once I had to stick to 4 channels to record demo and used 2 overheads one SM57 and AKG D112 and did pretty much the same as above posters advised. But I have found that miking bottom of the snare gave best results in this particular setup. Try and listen, until it all sounds good and you'll be surprised how much time will be saved during mixing

[kenjones]

Before you rush out and buy more microphones, I've found that less is almost always more. Fewer mics makes for an easier mix.

Try this with your two 57s:

57 outside (or inside) the kick drum.

The other 57 boomed (or hanging from the ceiling) about 2-3 feet over the middle of the kit.

Although I don't know what mics were used, I have been told this is how a lot of John Bonham's drum tracks were recorded. I have recorded this way with two 57s and it sounded very good. Both the snare and the toms sounded great.

[MrGuitarguy]

I just lectured 200 students at a local university about this stuff the other day...

(disclaimer: I found these images online. I don't have a drum set in today since I'm mixing or I would have snapped some photos of my own)

Personally, I wouldn't recommend a 57 for a kick drum. You're simply not going to get much low end. My favorite dynamic kick mic the EV 868, but the D112 or other standards from shure and sennheiser will do the trick too. Put a he in your kick drum and place the mic about 2 inches inside. The Aquarian super kick heads (the ones with the foam ring attached to them) are my favorite for a tight kick sound. Boost 1-2kHz for snap, 3-4kHz for bite and 5-7kHz for click (like a speed metal style drum sound)

Mic your snare by pointing the mic at the top head where the drummer strikes the drum most (usually indicated by the marks on the head). Keep the mic about 3-6 inches above the drum. Aim from under the hi-hat to eliminate bleed (using a cardioid mic like a SM57). An SM57 is idea for this (the industry standard for snare miking) but a small diaphragm condenser works great for more snap.

For toms, SM57's will work great. Point the at the center of the toms about 3-4 inches above the drum.

For overheads I prefer a spaced pair for width, especially if tom mic aren't used. However, phase is more of a concern in this type of technique, but I greatly prefer the sound. Make sure you've over the whole kit with a spaced pair, but try to center things on the snare. The x/y technique is basically idiot proof when it comes to phase concerns between the two overheads, but lacks a lot of width. I would recommend two condenser mics for overheads, however you do it, especially if you don't have tom mics, but SM57's can get the job done. Be sure to get the overheads high enough that you get rid of the rumble on any heavy cymbals and be sure you have the hi-hat in thee too if you don't have a mic on it. Odds are you'll need to flip the phase on your overheads.

The mud in your overheads will probably be around 400Hz A wide Q on the eq when reducing it should help suck some of it down.

x/y method:

Spaced pair:

Don't be shy with compression on your drums. Especially on the overheads if you don't have tom mics. High overheads like in the spaced pair picture, would be best for a 4 mic setup IMHO. In fact, the spaced pair picture is exactly the 4 mic setup I'd use. The first Boston album used this setup.

To check the phase of any two mics you can put your speakers in mono and flip phase one mic and try to get the sound to disappear as much as possible (it will get really thin sounding). Then flip the phase back on the mic you flipped previously and things should sound really thick, which is what you want.

In stereo, like on two overheads, the phase will sound like it's starting to come from further outside the speakers (almost a 3d effect) if it's wrong. Odds are your recording software also has a phase correlation meter built in that can help too.

Another easy way to check phase is to record a little bit of the drums and then zoom in on the waveforms. The waveforms shoul g up and down together, if they're opposite, then they are out of phase. Keep in mid that the will never be perfect as the distance to each mic will effect when the waves start and stop, but they should be close.

Out of phase waveforms that are shown canceling each other out (bottom waveform):

Hope this helps. Post if you need help on any more miking, mixing, etc.

[unfun75]

Thanks for the great replies. I'll probably have more questions when recording time comes.

[tomteriffic]

If we stick strictly with what you have:

You don't say if you'll be using a hardware recording/mixing solution, a computer based setup or what but, in general, I'd go with Colin's setup, spaced overheads, with the 57's on the snare and kick. Assuming that you'll want to get some recording done nicely and quickly, play around with placement and start with a good-sounding kit.

A few things I've tried with some success: Place the snare generally as shown in Colin's picture. I sometimes place it at about 90 degrees relative to the lip of the hi-hat. This can allow you to control the relative level of the hat with a simple treble shelving EQ.

The kick will be tricky with an SM-57, but playing around with placement, anything from the front of the front head to right up against the beater may work. The SM-57 has enough proximity effect that, if you hit the right resonant spot, the low end will be full enough and the inherent presence rise in a 57 will naturally help out the beater tick. Some simple high and low shelving EQ as needed can get you a pretty good sound, especially in a mixed context.

I prefer the spaced overheads and a little gentle compression, if available will help even things out. But I've done the over-the-shoulder x-y setup. Another one that works pretty well is an x-y setup out in front of the kit, about 3 feet off the floor. Place the mics about mid-height relative to the rack toms 2 to 3 feet away from the kit. I did a "living room" album back in the day where I used a couple of spaced Crown PZM's taped to the ceiling above the drummer and got an outstanding jazzy drum kit sound with that, a 57 and a kick mic.

Depending on your style of music, intended "feel", etc., less can definitely be more. Back when, I used to use a simple "one up, one down" setup. This had a condensor placed about 5 feet off the floor, roughly equidistant between the snare and the first rack tom, and an SM-57 (carefully placed) in the kick. This setup was pretty much the law for commercials and R&B sessions at the studio where I worked. Got a nice old-school sound with no phasing problems and a very quick setup time.

Another thing I did recently accidentally came out nicely when I was just knocking out some trial tracks. It involved an SM 57 on the snare, an EV 868 (thanks for the recommendation, Colin) in the kick, and a single condensor placed about 5 feet up over the second rack tom/floor tom. It took some fiddling with EQ and a little compression but wound up getting a very good, slamming '80's kind of drum sound with a moderate stereo spread.

Start with a good sounding kit and your more than halfway there, though.

[unfun75]

We have nice drums (RMV Brazil) and I tune with a DrumDial. Evans G2 heads on the toms, Aquarian Superkick 2 bass heads, Remo Emperor coated snare head. The mics will run to a newish Peavey mixer with USB that'll hook to my computer. I'll either use Cubase LE or WaveLab software to record.

[Bloozguy]

+1000 on the "make sure the kit sounds good" comments.

We used an exceptional group of drum mikes (AKG C414, C451 and D12E; Sennheiser MD421 and MD441; and Neumann U87 or U89) on the Yamaha kit in the studio, but the kit sounded first class all by itself.

Great mikes and great miking technique will only emphasize a bad sounding kit...but I suppose that holds true for anything in the studio

[Siaip Ciuvas]

its so true that it has to sound great to record well. I've seen so many times people asking "should I sound like Chris Cornell if I use SM7b" (get Chris' voice to sound like him and you'll sound great on any mic) or perception that mixing engineer can fix any crappy sounding guitar amp is totall wrong.

With drums however not only kit sound matters, but the way you play them too! We have recorder our CD with the band recently (I'm in the middle of mixing it now) and after some 5 songs drummer started telling that he doesn't like the sound of snare on the record. We've spent two hours changing mics positions just to find out his rimshots where wrong. And after we finisher tracking its so clear that those 5 songs snare sound is not that good, while next 9 songs sound much better, and only because he changed the way he hit it

[unfun75]

I've tested overhead placement, the snare, and the bass, all using SM57's. I was pleased with the overhead sound and the snare, but don't like the bass. It sounds like a thud instead of a boom. EQ ideas? Placement ideas? I placed the mic just inside the port hole, just outside the port hole, and even with the hole. Didn't really like any of those.

[Bloozguy]

Try removing the front head and mounting the microphone a couple inches off the beater head about 1/3 of the way in from the edge of the head...and make sure you're using a wood or other hard beater.

[MrGuitarguy]

Is the sound too dead or just not punchy enough? Tuning up the heads may help some if they are to loose. If you're using a felt beater, try a plastic on for more attack. You can also try putting the mic deep inside the drum, closer to the beater.

A couple of other things that sometimes work for changing kick sounds:

Put a blanket inside the kick drum then put a cinder block on top of that. SOmetimes a ZM mic on top of the cinder block is cool.

Build a kick tunnel by putting a chair in front of the drum, then drape a very thick/heavy blanket (or multiple blankets) over the chair and front of the drum. This creates a sound tunnel. Try positioning you mic in various spots inside it.

After you get your mic position where you want it, use your EQ and try removing some mud around 270Hz and boosting 4kHz. You'll have to experiment with the Q settings to find the right ones, but they will probably need to be medium width (somewhere between 1.5-2.5 on most EQs).

[Steve Haynie]

If you can rent PA at your local music store, see if you can get a good kick drum mic.

In my home studio I went with AKG D12E's and wish I had bought D112's instead. The D12E is a little too flat, and the D112 adds a little mid boost. A pair of Beta 52's worked their way into the mic box, and they work very well for kick.

[unfun75]

I'll try getting the mic closer to the beater.

I've asked some friends and nobody has a bass drum mic. I'm going to have to make do with the SM57.

[tomteriffic]

If you need less thud and more boom, try less damping inside the drum and tightening the front head. Usually you'll be able to hear a fundamental that works for you by doing that and the extra tension will cause the head to resonate more, creating a longer decay and, therefore, more boom and less thud. Then fool with placement. As Colin noted a 270Hz cut will help un-mud things and a 4K boost will bring out beater tick. The 270Hz cut will also leave more room for the bass.

[Mindseyes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ

If i wasent starting a project this week Id loan ya a kick drum mic.

Its possible to get it done with 57's, I seen a viedo a while back that showed a whole project that 57's were used on the whole thing, from drums & guitars to vox ane it was kinda cool how great it sounded!!

Hey MrGuitarguy how do feel about botttom head micing on toms, I know there is going to be some phase stuff to look out for.....I was thinking 421's on top and some 57's or 609's underneath.....

[MrGuitarguy]

You can certainly get good tom sounds miking both sides. I'm not a big fan of it though. Phase concerns would be the biggest issue, but i just never really end up liking the sound of the bottom mics. Make sure the top and bottom mics point towards the heads at the same angle, then flip the phase. The trouble with too many mics is all the phase problems.

I prefer to use 421's on toms for most styles. Large diaphragm condensers also sound great on toms, but don't let thee drummer hit them! I like 57's on the toms for jazz since they don't have the scooped mids that the 421's have, which can make it harder to hear really subtle things.

For anyone who cares, here's some of my most commonly used, favorite drum mic preferences:

Kick: EV N/D 868, Yamaha Sub kick (with another mic), Nuemann 47

Snare: SM57 (sometimes with a SDC -small diaphragm condenser taped to it-), MD441, AKG414(B-ULS or XLS) for the bottom head

Toms: MD421, SM57, AKG414

Overheads: Coles 4038 (ribbon mic), AKG414, Neumann KM 184 (cardioid), Royer 121 (ribbon), Shure KSM44 and KSM32

Room: Coles 4038, Royer 121, Shure KSM44 and KSM32, Neumann KM184 (omni), SM57, Neumann U87

I typically use about 14-20 mics on a 5 piece kit, but I usually pick and choose the sounds that fit the song during pre-mix editing.

[Mindseyes]

You can certainly get good tom sounds miking both sides. I'm not a big fan of it though. Phase concerns would be the biggest issue, but i just never really end up liking the sound of the bottom mics. Make sure the top and bottom mics point towards the heads at the same angle, then flip the phase. The trouble with too many mics is all the phase problems.

I prefer to use 421's on toms for most styles. Large diaphragm condensers also sound great on toms, but don't let thee drummer hit them! I like 57's on the toms for jazz since they don't have the scooped mids that the 421's have, which can make it harder to hear really subtle things.

For anyone who cares, here's some of my most commonly used, favorite drum mic preferences:

Kick: EV N/D 868, Yamaha Sub kick (with another mic), Nuemann 47

Snare: SM57 (sometimes with a SDC -small diaphragm condenser taped to it-), MD441, AKG414(B-ULS or XLS) for the bottom head

Toms: MD421, SM57, AKG414

Overheads: Coles 4038 (ribbon mic), AKG414, Neumann KM 184 (cardioid), Royer 121 (ribbon), Shure KSM44 and KSM32

Room: Coles 4038, Royer 121, Shure KSM44 and KSM32, Neumann KM184 (omni), SM57, Neumann U87

I typically use about 14-20 mics on a 5 piece kit, but I usually pick and choose the sounds that fit the song during pre-mix editing.

Thanks for the reply bro!!

........When tapeing a SDC to a 57 you would try and line up the diaphragm's, correct?......I'm gonna try this one this weekend!!!

How do you feel about LDC's like a KSM27 out about 36" infront of the kick, with a beta 52 inside?

Sorry about the hijack...................

[MrGuitarguy]

Mindseyes,

Anytime! Glad i could help.

Yes, line the diaphragms up on the two mics. The SDC may need a pad for the snare.

I haven't used a KSM27, but it would probably work for that. One of the engineers that works for me has one and he brought it in, but I never used it on anything myself. If it's similar to the other KSM's it should work alright in front of a kick (might need to build a kick tunnel - see my previous posts above) and probably make a decent room mic. You can also use a speaker wired backwards as a mic. It will pick up the low end thump and you can filter out the high end. That's really all yamaha's subkick is. It's just an NS-10m studio monitor speaker. You should be able to find schematics to do this online. If you can work a soldering iron, you can do it.

unfun75,

What interface and recording chain are you using? Any outboard EQ's or compressors? What kind of preamps?

[MrGuitarguy]

On the topic of drum sounds, I feel it's import to point out that 99% of all the drums on modern day rock records have a lot of drum samples added to them in addition to the original drums played for the record. This is a great way to add some power to your recorded drums.

Say you've got a snare sample that's bright and thin, it might add a little crispness under a midrange heavy snare. Use a thick sample for the opposite effect.

Kicks and snare usually have samples added by the mix engineer. Some mixers do it on toms as well, but not as often.

A great way to fix lousy hits is to get some samples of each drum before you start recording the song. This way they are fully tuned. Use these sounds to replace poor hits later in editing. Be sure and leave the overheads and room mics on when recording samples as you may want/need them as well. Don't worry about sampling snare rolls, but make sure you get all the velocities you need for the song. I try tio get about 4 good hit of each velocity I need so I can mix them up a bit.

You can also use your drum samples to send to reverbs so that the verb doesn't have excess hi-hat, cymbal or other kinds of bleed in it. This is especially great for snares. Just line your samples up under the real hits on another track and make sure they are in phase.

I like a lot of compression on rock oriented drums and i'm not shy about smashing the hell out of them. Just make sure the initial transient is getting through or you'll squeeze the life out of them in stead of making them punch harder. If you have room mics, try crushing them with compression to make the room "explode" and sound much larger (think John Bonham on The Ocean or When The Levy Breaks or a modern example would be Audio Slave's drums which have a huge room sound that is oozing with compression).

One last, but VERY important thing. For those of you using software, make sure that all of your drum tracks have the same amount of delay from plugins and bussing or they will sound really thin. This can be done by using some sort of automatic delay compensation (often built in to your recording software) or by other means. You may need to consult your software's manual for more on this, but weird delays can really ruin all that time you took to get you mics in phase at the beginning of the session.

Well this is starting to sound like one of the classes I give when I'm a visiting lecturer on a college campus. Lol! Anyway, hopefully some of this info will help on final mixing stages of your projects.

[Mindseyes]

On the topic of drum sounds, I feel it's import to point out that 99% of all the drums on modern day rock records have a lot of drum samples added to them in addition to the original drums played for the record. This is a great way to add some power to your recorded drums.

Say you've got a snare sample that's bright and thin, it might add a little crispness under a midrange heavy snare. Use a thick sample for the opposite effect.

Kicks and snare usually have samples added by the mix engineer. Some mixers do it on toms as well, but not as often.

A great way to fix lousy hits is to get some samples of each drum before you start recording the song. This way they are fully tuned. Use these sounds to replace poor hits later in editing. Be sure and leave the overheads and room mics on when recording samples as you may want/need them as well. Don't worry about sampling snare rolls, but make sure you get all the velocities you need for the song. I try tio get about 4 good hit of each velocity I need so I can mix them up a bit.

You can also use your drum samples to send to reverbs so that the verb doesn't have excess hi-hat, cymbal or other kinds of bleed in it. This is especially great for snares. Just line your samples up under the real hits on another track and make sure they are in phase.

I like a lot of compression on rock oriented drums and i'm not shy about smashing the hell out of them. Just make sure the initial transient is getting through or you'll squeeze the life out of them in stead of making them punch harder. If you have room mics, try crushing them with compression to make the room "explode" and sound much larger (think John Bonham on The Ocean or When The Levy Breaks or a modern example would be Audio Slave's drums which have a huge room sound that is oozing with compression).

One last, but VERY important thing. For those of you using software, make sure that all of your drum tracks have the same amount of delay from plugins and bussing or they will sound really thin. This can be done by using some sort of automatic delay compensation (often built in to your recording software) or by other means. You may need to consult your software's manual for more on this, but weird delays can really ruin all that time you took to get you mics in phase at the beginning of the session.

Well this is starting to sound like one of the classes I give when I'm a visiting lecturer on a college campus. Lol! Anyway, hopefully some of this info will help on final mixing stages of your projects.

Thanks a Mill for shareing with us bro!!!!!

I love stuff like this.....BIG TIME!!

I'm still trying to master the use of compression........

When you have time would you mind checking out the last stuff I did for my band and give me some pointers, you can find it here http://www.myspace.com/noyolamusic

The drums were tracked to a KORG D3200 then dumped to Reaper for mixing along with the other tracks........I still have a LOT to learn!!!

[unfun75]

RE your question:

I only have software comps and EQ's.

[Siaip Ciuvas]

Colin - your advise is super super super! Do you have any kind of power point / PDF / Word doc of this? I am thinking to put what you posted here into one, but tought maybe there is something done already? As coming back and re-reading is not the easiest way to learn

thanks again for sharing your knowledge!

[jwhitcomb3]

I bought my Rode NT4 for acoustic guitar, but it makes a great overhead drum mic as well. Super easy to set-up and re-position until you find the sweet spot.

-Jonathan