Weird ongoing eBay experience

[Willie G. Moseley]

Please humor me; this is detailed but I've got this thing about ethics and integrity, and this has yet to be settled...if indeed such will happen.

An instrument in a genre I happen to collect pops up on eBay, w/ a very brief description stating its condition + it's got a non-original case. Two full-length photos of it in its case, front and back.

I bought it on Buy It Now, sent a money order the same day. Seller notifies me when it's enroute. So far, so good.

When I get it, I find it's apparently been stripped and sealed in a satin finish; looks somewhat like the old Peavey T instruments. The pics on Ebay looked like it had a natural finish, but one couldn't tell whether it was glossy or satin. I have never seen an instrument by this mfr. in a satin natural finish, so I can only presume it's been stripped...and I'm not going to pop the neck...I haven't even plugged it in.

A switch on it was also broken; I could get that fixed, but I do not collect or want stripped-finish instruments. They might have a place as utility instruments, but refinishing lowers the value of an instrument by 1/3 to 1/2, most enthusiasts and experts agree. I immediately wrote an e-mail, stating that I agreed with his condition rating, but refinishing should not figure into condition rating (if in fact that's what he's done); it's a whole separate facet. I asked to return the instrument a refund, and I'd pay return freight as lesson learned to inquire next time for further details. I wrote four days ago; so far, no response.

Seller has more feedback than me, and is 100% positive. I'm at 99.1% on accounta some nut job I had to deal with over a year ago (and that episode was chronicled in VINTAGE GUITAR). That 100% yet no prompt reply are puzzling and contradictory, IMO.

Another point: Description did not say All Sales Final.

I'm pondering what my next step should be...how long before making another move, and what should it be? A registered letter? I consider participation on EBay to be an optional way of doing business, and don't particularly relish another negative mark on my percentile, but I really don't want to leave negative feedback either unless absolutely justified.

Any suggestions? I'm not a little lost eBayer, but if anybody's had any similar experience(s) I'd appreciate some input. Thanks in advance.

[Submariner85]

If you want a refund, contact the seller and let him know how you feel about it first. You might find a "nice" person that is willing to make things right. If they won't settle with you, you can do a couple of things:

If it was paid for through Paypal, file a complaint under Paypal for "Item significantly not as described"

If it was paid for through a means other than paypal, file a complaint with Ebay under "Item significantly not as described"

Either way, once you start the process, the seller is notified and has 10 days to respond.

If he denies it, it will most likely be held up for several weeks while ebay or paypal gather info to investigate the claim.

I'm in this situation right now is why I know. Some sellers are sorry asses but there are some that will actually do right by you.

[BruceM]

I've bought numerous Hamer guitars on ebay, and most have been decent experiences. The two that haven't are summarized below.

1) I bought a 90's Studio that only showed up in the "Hammer" section. It had grainy pictures, and I thought it was great that I got it for $353 or so. When it showed up, it was obviously damaged goods. The case was damp, the guitar was water damaged, with rusty hardware and finish flaking off on parts of the guitar. It was a flametop 59 burst, but not the best flame I've ever seen. So, I complained to the seller, and he stated that I didn't ask any questions, etc.... I couldn't disagree. I then decided to send the guitar to the Hamer factory for a refin, and here is the result:

All's well that ends well.

2) Much later, I purchased a Daytona, advertised as "all original." Again, don't ask me why, no questions seller on my part. When the guitar arrived, the neck was obviously a replacement, and didn't even have a serial # on it. I notified the seller, who agreed to take it back. I was out only shipping money.

The bottom line for me is, don't buy if there aren't good pictures. Contact the seller to get a feel for his integrity. Some guitar sellers don't really know what they're selling, and if you point this out, especially if they value their feedback, they'll make amends.

Good luck.

[hamersandstrats]

Get his contact information through eBay and call him on the phone. I do not believe an eBay seller ever Has to give money back-but if he knew the guitar was refinished and didn't mention it in the ad, then you have a good case.

In the future, for your own protection, use PayPal-they will go to bat for you alot more than eBay will if you have a complaint.

[atquinn]

if he knew the guitar was refinished and didn't mention it in the ad, then you have a good case.

I don't necessarily agree with that. He didn't say it wasn't refinished; that was an assumption on the buyer's part. So, if he's out to rip someone off, I don't know if you're going to be able to get your money back by using eBay or PayPal. If you payed by credit card, I would go directly to them a try to get your money back; it will probably be more effective. This guy has oodles of good feedback, so hopefully he'll do the right thing.

-Austin

[hamertek98]

E-bay owns paypal, so you'd want to do a credit card buy to begin with. From what I've heard and read the bay SUCKS for anyone with a legitimate claim. So far I've been lucky... only got burned a couple times for cheap stuff. I e-mailed a seller yesterday about a Hamer bass on the bay... whether or not it was usa. He mailed back and said he assumed it was, he'd had it for years. Had a BIN. I looked closer (on my friends mon.) and could tell it said cruise on the nut cover. The BIN is a good price, but... I don't want an imposter, even for the price.

Nowadays feedback on the bay doesn't mean what it used to. Too many people are scared to slam a person 'cause they'll get negative back. So what? The person (s) got you good and they have perfect feedback. Nail 'em with a negative if they don't work with you. What comes around...

Two strikes on you will not hurt. A lot of people might have been screwed by the seller in the past. As far as questions asked you may want to do a little better. If you feel you're in the right, do what ya gotta do. Don't let someone screw you 'cause they have good feedback!

The only 100% positive I've gotten is from this board. Even when I'm a total prick. Stick to your guns. You can always write about the seller later.

Edit... It probably sucked when you got a bad feedback, they may feel the same and work with you. If not... ROAST THEM!

[hamertek98]

I've bought numerous Hamer guitars on ebay, and most have been decent experiences. The two that haven't are summarized below.

1) I bought a 90's Studio that only showed up in the "Hammer" section. It had grainy pictures, and I thought it was great that I got it for $353 or so. When it showed up, it was obviously damaged goods. The case was damp, the guitar was water damaged, with rusty hardware and finish flaking off on parts of the guitar. It was a flametop 59 burst, but not the best flame I've ever seen. So, I complained to the seller, and he stated that I didn't ask any questions, etc.... I couldn't disagree. I then decided to send the guitar to the Hamer factory for a refin, and here is the result:

All's well that ends well.

2) Much later, I purchased a Daytona, advertised as "all original." Again, don't ask me why, no questions seller on my part. When the guitar arrived, the neck was obviously a replacement, and didn't even have a serial # on it. I notified the seller, who agreed to take it back. I was out only shipping money.

The bottom line for me is, don't buy if there aren't good pictures. Contact the seller to get a feel for his integrity. Some guitar sellers don't really know what they're selling, and if you point this out, especially if they value their feedback, they'll make amends.

Good luck.

What year did they refinish it? It looks great.

[kurtsstuff]

I've always dealed by this credo....If I have any feeling something might be suspect..Ask about it....If I don't and it turns out my suspicions were correct..I take my lumps and carry on. I would never ever buy something without asking general questions..especially guitars. I feel that it's wrong to buy first and then think of "what I should have asked" after the fact. Kinda cheesy and basically whiny in my opinion but...thats all it is...an opinion and we know what those are...

[hamertek98]

+++++ for what kurtsstuff wrote. Questions can save you from a bad deal a lot of the time.

[Submariner85]

Well with my current situation, I asked alot of questions and the F++ker flat out lied to me and sent me something totally different than the add. Hopefully paypal should see it as fraud.

[tafkathundernotes]

The fact that sellers are able to write ads with serious omissions and then say "Well, you didn't ask" is one of ebay's biggest flaws. People can be very misleading (intentionally or otherwise) and some of the photography skills I see are horrendous.

I've only had one problem with an item not arriving as described: an amplifier that was damaged badly getting it out of the rack. The guy was real apologetic after I called him on it and he paid the cost of a new front panel for the amp. I had to put it on, but I was satisfied with the deal. I think it's the only time I didn't leave any feedback.

If the seller was representing this as a vintage instrument of some kind, I'd think they would know what a refin looked like. Check through the sellers completed sales and see if your wasn't recently purchased by him. He could have gotten burned and then tried to dump it to some other unsuspecting soul. Personally, I would contact the guy and tell him it's not what you thought it was (condition-wise) and see what happens.

Let us know how it all turns out.

[currypowder]

It may very well be that the seller is just away from his computer for a few days or that your e-mail got buried or accidentally spam blocked. E-mail is certainly not a perfect communication system. I would try to contact him again through e-mail and like hamerandstrats2 suggested, get his phone number. If your goal is to get him to take back the guitar, it's always better to exhibit some patience first, not to come out with guns blazing. At least that's been my experience.

I've only had two ebay purchases which were not perfect. In one, a Gretsch guitar had a bad pickup (I had it tested at a repair shop) that was not disclosed. I immediately contacted the seller (who was basically a broker, selling for someone else). He offered to take it back or pay to have the pickup replaced. I opted to have it repaired. He paid w/ no problem ($190). Happy ending.

The other was basically the same type situation. An amp (fairly expensive, for me anyway) arrived with some significant shorting. I'm no electronics expert, but there was something seriously wrong. Again, I immediately contacted the seller, who offered to take it back, pay to have it repaired locally, or pay to have it sent to the manufacturer for repair. I opted to have it repaired locally, which turned out to be pretty inexpensive ($90), and the seller paid with no problem. Again, happy ending.

I guess my point is to do your best to contact the seller and let him prove what kind of seller he/she is through actions before going to paypal/ebay for resolution. Don't assume that no response means that the seller is unethical or ignoring you. I generally get myself in trouble when I make such assumptions. In fact, my only negative comment on ebay is when I assumed a seller was ignoring me when it turns out she was in the hospital. D'oh!

Good luck, I hope it all turns out well.

Greg

[kurtsstuff]

Well with my current situation, I asked alot of questions and the F++ker flat out lied to me and sent me something totally different than the add. Hopefully paypal should see it as fraud.

Well then!! If questions were asked and the answers were lies then...The only recourse is...Hunt the spineless maggot down and bust the guitar over his head...taking great care that you splinter the head so it resembles a porcupine because yep...you guessed it.......the headstocks going up his ass.......

[Punkavenger]

A. Can you contact the guitar manufacturer and verify that there was never a satin finish? This could help with your case...

B. If he doesnt reply within a week threaten to leave negative feedback ... This has always worked for me!

I recently bought a IBM thinkpad on EBay that was supposed to come with some very nice high end extras ... The laptop was fine but the extras were completely different and inferior to what was listed. The guy tried to bullshit me and say they were the same. I gave him several chances to send the right stuff and he never did. I then posted negative feedback. He sent the right stuff plus some more expensive software ASAP on the condition I would agree to remove neg. feedback. It was a long process but it turned out being worth it.

C. I've bought 3 guitars on ebay and they all needed some work that wasn't disclosed even though I always ask a million questions. I look at it philosophically. I "do" EBay for fun. I'm lucky that I have enough money to buy a few old guitars considering the world situation. Even if I have to spend a hundred or two the guitar usually ends up being cheaper and better than something I would find in one of these overpriced guitar shops in town (Santa Barbara).

D. If you can talk to the guy on the phone BEFORE you buy it really helps. Usually you can tell good idea of whats up. I bought an old fairly expensive BMW motorbike on EBay ... Normally I would have thought that was crazy ... buying a bike unseen. But I got such a good impression from the guy on the phone that I had no doubts whatsoever and it tuned out to be one of my best purchases ever.

[BruceM]

What year did they refinish it? It looks great.

This all happened in 2000. The refin at that time cost less than $500. So, I had about $900 into this guitar. They did a stellar job with the refinish. The case is in really bad shape, but the guitar looks great!

[Submariner85]

Well with my current situation, I asked alot of questions and the F++ker flat out lied to me and sent me something totally different than the add.   Hopefully paypal should see it as fraud.

Well then!! If questions were asked and the answers were lies then...The only recourse is...Hunt the spineless maggot down and bust the guitar over his head...taking great care that you splinter the head so it resembles a porcupine because yep...you guessed it.......the headstocks going up his ass.......

I wish I could.

I have plenty of ammo though. The original listing(even the description waaaay different) and I saved all of our emails.

The guy told me "You took your chances" lol . He won't be saying that when I get done with him.

[Jack C]

Definitely do a paypal complaint if that's how you paid for it. I had a horrible experience as a seller last year. Sold an excellent 2-tek Cruise bass. The nutjob buyer decided he didn't want it and tried to claim the neck was warped and the bass was unplayable. Bullsnot. I refused to give in and the bastard processed a paypal complaint against me. Because his claim was totally bogus I prevailed, but the whole experience really sucked. If you have a legit claim, that is a way to really get the seller's attention.

PS - thanks to Kim Keller and Greg Platzer for offering to help me out on that one. You guys rock.

[Punkavenger]

That refinish is fantastic!

Do you know if the "Hamer team" is still doing such great work at reasonable prices?

Or has it gone to shit like everything else?

Who do I contact for a refinish?

Thanks!

[Willie G. Moseley]

UPDATE CITY: Finally got thru to the seller via an alternate e-mail and he apparently ain't gonna do nothin'.

Among the snippets from his response are his claim that it "was never described as an original or collectible instrument" (TRUE), says the switch isn't broken, it's bent and still functional (NOT EXACTLY TRUE, IT'S A MINI-TOGGLE AND WHILE BENT AND SORTA FUNCTIONAL, IT ROTATES AS WELL, DISALLOWING ANY DEPENDABLE REFERENCE, SO IT'S GONNA HAVE TO BE REPLACED). Says the "good condition is reflected in the price" (POSSIBLY, BUT ONLY UP TO A POINT---I STAND BY MY OPINION THAT A REFINISHED/STRIPPED INSTRUMENT IS A SEPARATE ISSUE WHEN IT COMES TO CONDITION RATINGS, AND THE SWITCH WAS NOT ADDRESSED EITHER---HE SIMPLY DIDN'T OFFER SUCH CRITICAL DETAILS).

Bottom line is perhaps I should've asked, and perhaps I leaped before I looked (closely). Still, his ethics are questionable for all the aforementioned reasons in the original post and this update.

I may opt to use this as a utility instrument at some of the rougher establishments I might play here in the Deep South.

And as another person posted here, I can always write about it.

WGM/VGM

[hardheartedbill]

man, that is bogus! this whole "you did'nt ask" thing is beyond the pale IMO, total 100% BS

[kurtsstuff]

I'm currently in the same situation as we speak but....I bought first and wondered and asked later because I thought the price was real good and upon closely looking at the pictures of the item in question after the fact, I don't think it's quite what it was represented to be but......I stand by my ethics and not the sellers in that...I did'nt ask beforehand...I did'nt take the time to really study the pictures closely because I did'nt want to lose out by taking the time to do so...any and all blame rest's on my shoulders because simply put...... my greed replaced my patience and judgement so.....my bad

[SteveB]

It's bogus when sellers use the excuse that you "didn't ask" about something. Intentionally omitting information about a guitar is just as bad as lying in my opinion. Some sellers do that intentionally hoping that no-one will ask and get stuck with a substandard product and the price of a good one.

[kurtsstuff]

It's bogus when sellers use the excuse that you "didn't ask" about something. Intentionally omitting information about a guitar is just as bad as lying in my opinion. Some sellers do that intentionally hoping that no-one will ask and get stuck with a substandard product and the price of a good one.

I agree with Turbo but...It's really up to us as the buyer to cover our asses...I can't tell you how many times I've made purchases from people who really had "no idea" what they were selling ie: deceased family members product, Flea market gadget they thought looked cool and on and on.....If you ask just even a few pertinent questions....You'll know if they know what the hell they are doing or not

[SteveB]

I agree with Turbo but...It's really up to us as the buyer to cover our asses...I can't tell you how many times I've made purchases from people who really had "no idea" what they were selling ie: deceased family members product, Flea market gadget they thought looked cool and on and on.....If you ask just even a few pertinent questions....You'll know if they know what the hell they are doing or not

yeah... I one time bought a counterfeit Schecter from a pawn shop. Since neither of us knew there were counterfeits out there, I just chalked that one up to a learning experience.

[Willie G. Moseley]

The seller in this situation apparently has sold as many, if not more instruments on eBay than I have, from what I can determine thru viewing his feedback, which, as noted previously, is higher than mine. So the "clueless" facet is applicable here, as far as I'm concerned.

One other quote from the seller's response: "I am not a guitar dealer."

IT SHOWS.