Paypal forced buyer to destroy instrument.

[santellavision]

Yeah, this is distrubing...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01/04/paypal-forced-ebay-buyer-violin-counterfeit-_n_1183687.html

[mc2]

The story says this was a pre-WWII violin, despite the counterfeit claim.

Is there no statue of limitations on counterfeits, even on vintage instruments?

[Turdus]

The story says this was a pre-WWII violin, despite the counterfeit claim.

Is there no statue of limitations on counterfeits, even on vintage instruments?

Good question, and one which the owner of Rickenbacker could probably answer. I've heard that they aggressively pursue companies that attempt to copy their designs. I don't have all the details but have heard that it is illegal to sell a Ric copy. Apparently they can get Ebay auctions shutdown which involve copies of their instruments... Ibanez, etc. Those 70's Ibanez Ric bass copies are extremely cool... they are not Ric quality, but they play and sound pretty good.

This is a disturbing topic. Can companies now post a lookout to buy up and destroy what they deem are counterfeit copies of their instruments?

What recourse does the seller have? Seems like Paypal will be hearing from a few lawyers.

[kizanski]

...PayPal’s terms and conditions do include a paragraph about the destruction of goods deemed to be counterfeit.

I'd better hold on tight to my Nash Strat and Broadcaster...

[svl]

Okay, let's put aside the whole"Paypal demanding people to destroy counterfeit stuff" issue for just a moment.

If the instrument was so important to the seller, why didn't she just return the buyers money and get the violin back without Paypal's involvement? That seems like a simple and logical solution. She had to refuse the return and tell the buyer to shove it, which then made the buyer file a claim with Paypal and therefore the buyer had no recourse other than to abide by Paypal's request (as ridiculous as it was).

I've purchased a couple of guitars that were not what the seller claimed and had to go through the process because the asshole seller refused to just do it the easy way and refund my money. If Paypal had said that the only way I was getting my dough back was to take a chainsaw to the things, baby, I'da gone Jesse James Dupree on the shit.

[kizanski]

"The reason why we reserve the option to ask the buyer to destroy the goods is that in many countries, including the US, it is a criminal offense to mail counterfeit goods back to a seller."

Sounds like the buyer just contacted PayPal to dispute or the seller gave him some pushback. Either way, once that was done, the wheels were set in motion.

Here is my issue with the story (you'd have had to have read the whole thing, and I rarely do that):

Antique violin dealer Andrew Hooker told the Guardian only an “imbecile” would buy a precious instrument without playing it first.

He added: “I sympathise with the wronged party but a fool and his money are easily parted.”

Well, that's not entirely true.

The buyer (the fool in this expert's scenario) got his money back.

The seller got hosed.

This is why my new mantra is "Buy on eBay, sell on Craig's List."

[HAMERMAN]

Yet another case of an idea/rule with good intentions being used poorly! :-)

Interesting and disturbing but there is another way to look at it that makes at least some sense. Say you work for Hamer and saw that somebody just sold an obviously fake Virtuoso on eBay with a buy it now that lasted 2 hours. (I assume since it came and went so fast nobody here had time to alert ebay.) You contact eBay and Paypal and let them know about the fake. Would you want Paypal to send the fake back to the seller who would probably then just sell it to another buyer; perhaps on Craigslist this time - or would you want it destroyed?

[whiskeyzulu]

Agreed - PP has a dispute resolution policy and parties could have resolved it b/t themselves whether by full/partial refund. Seller must have told B fu and S should have been required to provide PP w/ "proof" that it was counterfeit.

[Turdus]

This is why my new mantra is "Buy on eBay, sell on Craig's List."

I don't know about that one Ice. I usually can't sell jack sh*t on CL, even with the "Would Ya Take a F*ckin' look at this", low, low, low Turdus prices.

Put an item on Ebay, and away it goes... usually for much more than my CL asking price.

[MCChris]

This is why my new mantra is "Buy on eBay, sell on Craig's List."

More people should adopt my mantra:

Enough with the incessant wheeling and dealing on the internet, for chrissakes.

[lincsman]

How did Paypal no it was counterfeit,They should of had it checked frist before destorying it with out proof this is distrubing

[Steve Haynie]

How did Paypal know it was counterfeit,They should of had it checked frist before destorying it with out proof this is distrubing

Absolutely. The seller could sue Paypal (if she has the money) to prove her violin was a counterfeit.

A new scam could arise from this. Buy a used Hamer that has been refinished with a different headstock logo and claim it was a counterfeit. When sending proof it was destroyed just send a photo of a pile of ashes. The buyer gets a Hamer and his money. This gets scary.

[burningyen]

What a waste of wood. Frickin' remove the label and let it exist for what it is.

[MCChris]

Disturbing? Scary? Come on guys. Dealing with eBay/Paypal is 100% VOLUNTARY! They're not rewriting the friggin' Constitution.

How much more outrageous shit do people have to read about doing deals on the internet before they decide to keep it to a minimium, if not abandon the practice altogether? I just don't get it.

And if your answer is "because it's fun" or "because I like it," then don't complain. Accept the fact that, of your own accord, you're a slave to this ridiculousness.

[kizanski]

This is why my new mantra is "Buy on eBay, sell on Craig's List."

I don't know about that one Ice. I usually can't sell jack sh*t on CL, even with the "Would Ya Take a F*ckin' look at this", low, low, low Turdus prices.

Put an item on Ebay, and away it goes... usually for much more than my CL asking price.

Yes, it sells, but ebay has reworked everything to protect buyers and all but bu-fu the sellers.

The last time I felt like cleaning house, I listed eight guitars on ebay.

Yes, they all sold, but I also had to pay $750 in ebay fees.

Fuck that. No more!

Disturbing? Scary? Come on guys. Dealing with eBay/Paypal is 100% VOLUNTARY! They're not rewriting the friggin' Constitution.

How much more outrageous shit do people have to read about doing deals on the internet before they decide to keep it to a minimium, if not abandon the practice altogether? I just don't get it.

And if your answer is "because it's fun" or "because I like it," then don't complain. Accept the fact that, of your own accord, you're a slave to this ridiculousness.

This is neither the subject nor the vehicle to interject logic and rational thinking.

Please move along, sir.

[hikarateboy]

yet another reason why I am trying to avoid doing any more business with paypal and switching to Dwolla, Just getting into it but at $.25 per transaction and free under $10 why not, Maybe someone knows why I shouldnt use it but I am going to try it

[tobereeno]

boy, things always are interesting with the CEO of Rickenbacker....and not in a good way.

[tombo]

yet another reason why I am trying to avoid doing any more business with paypal and switching to Dwolla, Just getting into it but at $.25 per transaction and free under $10 why not, Maybe someone knows why I shouldnt use it but I am going to try it

+1 to Dwolla! Wouldn't it be cool if this was sort of an HFC Buy/Sell endorsed thing?

[Jim P]

This is clearly a case where PayPal doesn't understand that nearly 99% of all violins out there are actually copies of a renonwned instrument in one form or another. $2500 is pocket change compared to the many Stradivarius clones that fetch far more than that. Still, that totally sucks!

[tbonesullivan]

Don't assume that the seller gave the buyer a hard time. I work with paypal at work, and we've had people open up paypal disputes... TWO DAYS AFTER PLACING AN ORDER. Placed an order, hadn't received it in 2 days, so they opened a dispute. Nevermind the fact that this was an international shipment from the US to ISRAEL. Then of course they had the nerve to place further orders with us.

In another case we had an item that was shipped, the buyer was provided a tracking number. They never received the parcel, even though UPS says it was delivered. So instead of CONTACTING US, after a few weeks they simply opened a paypal dispute to get their money back. This results in INFINITELY MORE paperwork, and looks bad on our paypal record. If they had simply told us they had not received it, we could have started a UPS claim and probably had resolution within a week. Instead they waited a month and started a dispute. We lost the dispute, but won the UPS claim, so we weren't really out any money, but it makes us look bad.

For this reason we are considering ceasing all activities with paypal, as they make it way too easy to start a dispute. With credit cards we often get calls from the CC company before starting a chargeback because again, it's easier to just deal with it that way than to go through the whole process.

Now, the biggest issue I have with this thing is that the seller was given, as far as I can tell, NO CHANCE to defend herself. The violin should not have been destroyed unless there was INCONTRAVERTIBLE evidence that it was in fact a counterfeit. It seems to be a rather arbitrary decision on paypal, and continues their overall policy of always taking the buyers side.