De-Kahlerization: does it have any effect on a guitar's value?

[paults]

Between that black Standard Mattsmusic posted, Murkat's 4/16 bench report, and an old thread where Greg plugged a hole, and put a really nice book arched flame maple plate on a 4-digit, it occurred to me:

De-kahlerizing is more intrusive than the route was, because the repair generally includes top repair, and could even include an entire new top, and maybe the whole guitar may get refinished at point. There are those four little holes at the headstock from the locking nut (an easy fix if the headstock is black)

Four-digit Standards had the tailpiece closer to the bridge than on a Les Paul. It's not uncommon to see

Relocated tailpiece studs on a kahlerized Standard.

So, would making a guitar look more stock by doing more instrusive work make it worth even less? Or not affect the value at all?

This is kind of like the "cracked or repaired" question, but having the kahler on a guitar isn't "broken".

These are some otherwise desirable guitars I have seen lately with Kahlers on them:

1970s natural finish ash strat

20th anniversary white Stratocaster

1980 The Strat red

Black 1979 Standard

Flame top 1980 Standard

80s Les Paul Custom with a factory stock Kahler

Flame top B/C Sunburst.

Question for those who wouldn't automatically pass on guitars that are not all original:

Would you buy one of these at their reduced market price, with the

Intent of fixing it? If one was already pro-repaired, would it be any more desirable, or maybe less?

Me? I like those "damn Kahlers", so I leave them on.....

Would

[paults]

Oh, yeah, one related thing. What about all those guitars with an even bigger route in the back for a wireless? Same question

[murkat]

I like Kahler trems.

I have had bought brand new custom ordered 2300 Pro (two arms) with heavy springs and floyd style Kalher locking at nut nut

on my own 1st made guitar, Koa V when came avail in 1983ish.

For those who want install on a guitar, yes, I do that without argument.

For those who want a removal and fill, yes, I do that too.

IT is my job, puts food on the table, pays the bills, keeps a roof over our heads.

And, I always look out for donor carcasses to exploit to a potential customers needs, wants.

Kahler, some like, most not. Same with a floyd, etc.

Todays guitars and parts, tech, etc. are a modern man / woman's legos.

there is worse out there, but a Kahler, rightly setup ( like anything else) is a fine piece of tech.

For me, it is all about what the client want / needs in regards to a Kahler.

[cmatthes]

^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^

As it should be!

That being said, I'd prefer to not have a Kahler on there. I would pay a reduced amount for a guitar with a Kahler if I thought that the repair (and subsequent sale of the Kahler/parts) would make me better off than if I had purchased an unmolested one.

[Armitage]

I simply wouldn't buy a guitar with that kind of work done to it.

[The Shark]

Phil Kubicki built this for me in 1984. It has the heavy springs. It's one of the best sounding and playing guitars I've ever owned.

Then, there's Black Bart which was a donor with a Kahler route that Jay (Murkat) revived. It's now back to stock.......

A previously installed Kahler can disappear. It's only money...

[burningyen]

Only "the market" can decide whether de-Kahlering increases or decreases value. For me personally, removing a Kahler is always an improvement. New top or invisible repair, either works for me. I assume we're not talking about an investment piece where we'd want to preserve the top as much as possible, since I'm pretty sure a guitar that's been Kahlerized is pretty much worthless as an investment unless it's Gilmour's Black Strat.

[kizanski]

Getting rid of a Kahler can ONLY be a good thing.

[Steve Haynie]

I want another guitar with a Kahler just to have something with a whammy bar. The Floyd saddles move while the Kahler saddles do not. That made a difference to me. I never use a whammy bar anyway, but I want one.

[diablo175]

Phil Kubicki built this for me in 1984. It has the heavy springs. It's one of the best sounding and playing guitars I've ever owned.

Shark- when you changed strings on that Kubicki build, did you follow the recommendations of soldering the wraps and pre-bending them to fit the cam curve? How long was your string life on that?

[The Shark]

Phil Kubicki built this for me in 1984. It has the heavy springs. It's one of the best sounding and playing guitars I've ever owned.

Shark- when you changed strings on that Kubicki build, did you follow the recommendations of soldering the wraps and pre-bending them to fit the cam curve? How long was your string life on that?

Yes. This wasn't my first Kahlerized guitar. The solder trick may not have increased the string life, but it did help with breakage or slipping at the wrap. These days, it sees so little action, I only change strings every once in a while.

[Hamer Dave]

My opinion...

My feelings are that, irreversibly modifying, irreplaceable vintage instruments, is a travesty. I'd rather folk find other replaceable donors for that. Even this 'overspray' I've recently come across on a couple guitars of late. It doesn't look natural, and it sure doesn't feel natural. I'm sure it's not even nitro. I can only compare it to having a plastic condom on my tool. I can not comprehend why this is done to an original vintage instrument?

That said, if a customer insists on mod's, so be it. The owner has the right to do what will make him happy, with his property! I just hope these 'possibly clueless' people are sat down, and informed of the consequences of re/de-valuing their instrument. Kind of like the kid putting 20-30k into their low-rider, to later find he can only get $500 on trade-in.

I will always strongly consider a bastardized instrument. The attraction being, they are very affordable. Allowing one to 'in a way' own a really cool guitar. I'd only de-kahler something if I wasn't doing additonal modification to other 'original' area. I would possibly block it, and figure out a way to creatively finish 'that' area. i.e. I would not have a new top put on, or have additional surfaces refinished. Retaining originality is more valued by me, than 'perceived' originality. If that makes sense.

[cmatthes]

At the time a lot of mods like that were made, the guitars just weren't all that expensive (or even all that old). I've seen a Kahler on a '50s single cut Jr. (and worse!), but keep in mind that you could scoop those up for $700 on average back in the mid-late '80s - less, if they were fairly thrashed out.

In the early/mid 80s, people wanted a locking trem on everything, and sometimes it was cheaper to just mod a perfectly good guitar to get that done. I came within inches of doing that to a great Les Paul...glad I decided to spring for something else instead!

[The Shark]

I was a Kahler dealer from 1988 to 1992. I sold a bunch of them. My luthier installed almost all of them. We charged $75. I hate to think of the vintage guitars we "modified". I remember one Les Paul Special. It was a T.V. finish 1960. We Kahlerized it and put in a humbucker bridge pickup. It was fantastic. The owner offered it up for sale to me a short time later. He was really pissed at the decrease in value for having upgraded the guitar. I still know where it is. He still has it.

[Hamer Dave]

At the time a lot of mods like that were made, the guitars just weren't all that expensive (or even all that old). I've seen a Kahler on a '50s single cut Jr. (and worse!), but keep in mind that you could scoop those up for $700 on average back in the mid-late '80s - less, if they were fairly thrashed out.

In the early/mid 80s, people wanted a locking trem on everything, and sometimes it was cheaper to just mod a perfectly good guitar to get that done. I came within inches of doing that to a great Les Paul...glad I decided to spring for something else instead!

A very valid point. Yes, very, very true. But today....

[diablo175]

My opinion...

My feelings are that, irreversibly modifying, irreplaceable vintage instruments, is a travesty. I'd rather folk find other replaceable donors for that. Even this 'overspray' I've recently come across on a couple guitars of late. It doesn't look natural, and it sure doesn't feel natural. I'm sure it's not even nitro. I can only compare it to having a plastic condom on my tool. I can not comprehend why this is done to an original vintage instrument?

That said, if a customer insists on mod's, so be it. The owner has the right to do what will make him happy, with his property! I just hope these 'possibly clueless' people are sat down, and informed of the consequences of re/de-valuing their instrument. Kind of like the kid putting 20-30k into their low-rider, to later find he can only get $500 on trade-in.

I will always strongly consider a bastardized instrument. The attraction being, they are very affordable. Allowing one to 'in a way' own a really cool guitar. I'd only de-kahler something if I wasn't doing additonal modification to other 'original' area. I would possibly block it, and figure out a way to creatively finish 'that' area. i.e. I would not have a new top put on, or have additional surfaces refinished. Retaining originality is more valued by me, than 'perceived' originality. If that makes sense.

In 1984 or '85, I took a good (maybe 8.0- 9/10) condition '76 CBS Strat with the micro-tilt neck adjustment and gave it to a guitar shop co-owned (?) by Dana Sutcliffe of the Alverez Dana Scoop fame. I wanted to VanHalen-ize it and had them (him?) put in a coil tapped Duncan Distortion at the bridge, rout the trem hole to take a Floyd, and to have it float, level the neck radius a little and install a Kahler fingertite string lock behind the existing Fender nut. As a result, they had to scrap the microtilt mechanism and shim the neck ever so slightly as well as customize a pick guard to accept the Floyd and humbucker. I paid about 375 bucks for the Strat in 1982 and dropped about $500 (a LOT of money for me back in that day) or so bucks into the modding.

Imagine my shock when I saw the VERY same Strat (down to the ugly, red puke pick guard) about a year ago in a George's Music going for 1200 bucks. I just about shat myself

No regrets though. Still have the Strat and it's been my faithful main workhorse over the years. It's had it's share of admirers as well, (this was before Fender came out with it's HM Strat and the Richie Sambora model) so much so, that they've offered to buy it right then and there without having even heard it/played it.

[Hamer Dave]

My opinion...

My feelings are that, irreversibly modifying, irreplaceable vintage instruments, is a travesty. I'd rather folk find other replaceable donors for that. Even this 'overspray' I've recently come across on a couple guitars of late. It doesn't look natural, and it sure doesn't feel natural. I'm sure it's not even nitro. I can only compare it to having a plastic condom on my tool. I can not comprehend why this is done to an original vintage instrument?

That said, if a customer insists on mod's, so be it. The owner has the right to do what will make him happy, with his property! I just hope these 'possibly clueless' people are sat down, and informed of the consequences of re/de-valuing their instrument. Kind of like the kid putting 20-30k into their low-rider, to later find he can only get $500 on trade-in.

I will always strongly consider a bastardized instrument. The attraction being, they are very affordable. Allowing one to 'in a way' own a really cool guitar. I'd only de-kahler something if I wasn't doing additonal modification to other 'original' area. I would possibly block it, and figure out a way to creatively finish 'that' area. i.e. I would not have a new top put on, or have additional surfaces refinished. Retaining originality is more valued by me, than 'perceived' originality. If that makes sense.

In 1984 or '85, I took a good (maybe 8.0- 9/10) condition '76 CBS Strat with the micro-tilt neck adjustment and gave it to a guitar shop co-owned (?) by Dana Sutcliffe of the Alverez Dana Scoop fame. I wanted to VanHalen-ize it and had them (him?) put in a coil tapped Duncan Distortion at the bridge, rout the trem hole to take a Floyd, and to have it float, level the neck radius a little and install a Kahler fingertite string lock behind the existing Fender nut. As a result, they had to scrap the microtilt mechanism and shim the neck ever so slightly as well as customize a pick guard to accept the Floyd and humbucker. I paid about 375 bucks for the Strat in 1982 and dropped about $500 (a LOT of money for me back in that day) or so bucks into the modding.

Imagine my shock when I saw the VERY same Strat (down to the ugly, red puke pick guard) about a year ago in a George's Music going for 1200 bucks. I just about shat myself

No regrets though. Still have the Strat and it's been my faithful main workhorse over the years. It's had it's share of admirers as well, (this was before Fender came out with it's HM Strat and the Richie Sambora model) so much so, that they've offered to buy it right then and there without having even heard it/played it.

Sounds like a cool guitar. I hate those 70's strats. They're the exception. Lol! I had a '78 with the factory poly'd over maple neck. What a god awful thing. I think you did good in this case. You're still playing it, and loving it.

: )

[Never2Late]

I posted a question in another thread, not 'seeing' this one until now - what are the COSTS associated with removing a Kahler, and returning the guitar to STOCK condition?