PA recommendations...

[edgar_allan_poe]

OK...played another acoustic gig last night and I have had it with this shit. We played awesome, and the place loved us, but we sounded like shit. We are using a small setup that farts out constantly. Here is our current setup.

1. Peavey Powered mixer...8 channels

2. Yamaha 12"speakers with horns and a Yamaha monitor

Everything sounds great individually, but once we all play it sounds awful. Also, I am still having problems with my acoustic sound. For the life of me I can't figure this out...I did a solo version of Hotel California and it sounded like my 12 string was going through a fuzz box. I am at my wits end here guys...help a brother out...WTF are we doing wrong? I don't mind spending money to upgrade, but I find it hard to believe that even this modest setup should sound this bad.

[jettster]

This is the setup my brother recently picked up. Worked pretty well for us last weekend and should be able to cover most reasonable venues.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MACSRM450 X 2

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MACSWA1801

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MACDFX12

[Turdus]

Poe,

How about some more info on what the problem is with the sound? Muffled? Distorted? Which Yamaha speakers? Club series? BRs? I was pointed towards the Club series, and they sound much clearer to me than the BRs.

I have a Yamaha 6 ch mixer, and when compared to a Mackie 808, it sounds very dark, and a bit muffled, and I can get the channels to distrort. I'd say this is because there is no input gain control on the Yamaha. I think this is a very critical requirement for any PA mixer. I ended up going with a Carvin powered mixer. More features than the Mackie, and it sounds equally as good to me.

[Luke]

Everything sounds great individually, but once we all play it sounds awful.

You guys are probably overlapping one amother too much. The key to a great mix is each person having their own little slice of the EQ spectrum. Live I am forced to play a much brighter tone than I prefer playing alone. If I use my alone tone in a band setting it gets muddied up. Also not everyone can be represented with the same volume in the mix. Listeners can only process a finite amount of information. You need to play to your strengths. If your band sings out of key, keep the vocals buried, if the drummer is the best musician in the band, make him louder.

There is an excellent article on this issue here:

http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0900/primer.htm

[edgar_allan_poe]

You guys are probably overlapping one another too much.

I am sure that is part of the issue, but it doesn't explain me sounding like shit when I am playing a song solo.

I am looking into the Soundcraft Gigarac 600...anyone know anything about this?

BTW...the Speakers we are using are the Yamaha BR series.

[edgar_allan_poe]

I ended up going with a Carvin powered mixer. More features than the Mackie, and it sounds equally as good to me.

Is this the one you are using?

Carving

This looks very appealing...especially considering the price. This compares favorably to the Mackie?

[RobB]

Stay away from Soundcraft/Spirit products. I use them in the field and can attest to the British 'shite' factor.

Carvin, Mackie, higher-end Yamaha boards

Crown, Carver, EV, Mackie poweramps

Meyer, EAW, Mackie speakers

Caveat, I am not an audio expert, my recommendations stem only from my use of this gear in my job. Don't cheap-out on the PA, Rob. If you guys all pool your money and get some high-quality gear, you can concentrate on playing music and not fretting about how the house mix sounds.

[edgar_allan_poe]

OK...did some poking around on the Carvin site and came across this nice looking unit. We already have a Yamaha monitor so we would keep that. Also, I just got off the phone with the other guys and they all would like to get as independent from the electric band as possible. This may kill all our birds with one stone.

Here is how our acoustic band sets up...

1. 3 guitars, but only 2 will be played most of the time.

2. 3 Vocals....all important vocals because we take pride in our 3 part harmonies. Very few bands can sing like us.

No percussion or anything else... One of the drawbacks that I can see with this mixer is that there seems to be a universal phantom power feature...this shouldn't be an issue for us because we don't use any condensers, just good ole fashioned Sennheiser and Shure dynamic mics.

Do you guys think that this unit will deliver the goods?

Carvin Stage Mate

[Turdus]

Rob,

This is the Carvin I bought:

http://www.carvin.com/products/mixer.php?ItemNumber=C1644P

I also bought a Crown power amp, and a couple EQs, so I could use the 4 internal amps for monitors. We've used it for an outdoor show in very cold temperatures, a lot of rehearsing with cabinets, and as the console for our headphone rehearsals. This particular unit sounds great. I had the Yamaha, and a Mackie 808S to compare it to, during the 10 day trial. For only a couple hundred more than the Mackie, the Carvin does not have the same power output, but several other features that made it the winner. I thought the Mackie was a good sounding unit, and I was initially concerned how the Carvin would sound. To me, it sounded as good, if not better than the Mackie.

I've not tried the unit you listed, but keep in mind that they have a 10 day trial.

On the Yamaha BR's..... I bought a BR 12" monitor, and a JBL JRX 1-12". I thought the JBL sounded a lot clearer. I took them both back, and picked up two 1-12" club series monitors. Clearly the winner of the 3.

[edgar_allan_poe]

This is the Carvin I bought:

http://www.carvin.com/products/mixer.php?ItemNumber=C1644P

I also bought a Crown power amp, and a couple EQs, so I could use the 4 internal amps for monitors. We've used it for an outdoor show in very cold temperatures, a lot of rehearsing with cabinets, and as the console for our headphone rehearsals. This particular unit sounds great. I had the Yamaha, and a Mackie 808S to compare it to, during the 10 day trial. For only a couple hundred more than the Mackie, the Carvin does not have the same power output, but several other features that made it the winner. I thought the Mackie was a good sounding unit, and I was initially concerned how the Carvin would sound. To me, it sounded as good, if not better than the Mackie.

I've not tried the unit you listed, but keep in mind that they have a 10 day trial.

Nice...but that really looks like overkill for our needs. We play mostly small bar gigs with the acoustic act. What do you think of the amp that I listed? Do you see any glaring omitions that would defeat the purpose of upgrading?

[Hamer95USA]

Hey poe,

Sorry to hear that you're having problems with your acoustic guitar sound. You may want to consider having an acoustic guitar preamp to eq your acoustic guitar. If you're asking to recommend a powered mixer, I use the Mackie 808S powered mixer and Yamaha S115IV Club series mains and S115IV monitors. It sounds good and is affordable. I use this system in the various cover bands that I work with and found it reliable, good user interface and easy to get a good sound from.

Guitar George

[DavidE]

Which PV amp head/mixer? I use a 6 channel one that works great for my acoustic gigs. Some of them were 2 guitars / 2 vocals, but most are 2 vocals 2 guitar. But my old wedding band had a 9 input version and we ran 6 vocals and keys though it with no problems like you describe. I think what I have is a 600F. They're on the 600G now.

Anyway, let's start with your 12 string sounding like it's going through a fuzz box. Seems to me that the signal is too hot somewhere along the line. The PV inputs don't have adjustable gain on mine, but the inputs handle a wide range of gain. But it's possible that the output of your guitar is just too hot for the input of the PV. Does the channel have a pad button? If so, try pushing that in and increasing the volume on your guitar's preamp. It's all a matter of finding the right balance for the particular guitar. If you're trying to use the same input with your 12 string and 6 strings, you may have a problem if the guitars have very different output levels.

Do you put the guitars through anything before they hit the p.a. input? I've put together an acoustic pedalboard and two of the pedals (Boss acoustic thing and a Boss looper) have input level controls that can cause distortion problems if set too high. If you go though any pedals, check the guitar straight in to see if the pedals are causing the problem.

Ok, moving on from the guitar issue...

Do you have individual channels cranked and the master low? If so, you should try putting the master volumes on 1/2 way (or more if necessary) and using individual channel volumes set low. Now, bear in mind that some boards (including my PV) use the "main" channel volume to adjust the amount of signal for that channel going to the internal effects. I tend to keep my individual channel volumes around 1/2 and rarely get my main volume above 2 or 3. You just want to be careful not to overload the signal at any stage, or the sound will get muddy or distorted.

As for speakers, I use some JBL MR series I think. Small in size, these have a 12" woofer and horn. But these speakers are heavy as hell and can handle tremendous power. The 200 watts my PV throws to the mains are nothing for these speakers. They sound damn good. For monitors, I typically use a single Carvin wedge monitor because it can handle 300 watts and weighs nothing. Sounds surprisingly good. But I've also used a pair of Yamaha Club IV speakers with 15's that sound great (but are heavy).

You didn't mention whether your sound is a problem on the mains/monitor or both. You also didn't say which model monitor you have.

But let's face it, you have cheap mains speakers. $200 is nothing for a mains speaker. Hell, I'm a cheap ass and I spent more than that on mine used! ;-) That's perhaps the most critical part of your p.a. system. Is it possible that your speakers just can't handle what you're sending to them? Do you have any friends with quality p.a. speakers that you could try?

I play a lot of acoustic gigs and would be happy to try and help any way I can.

[tomteriffic]

Rob, one thing that appears to have been overlooked is your guitar sound. Does it sound like kwap only though this system, or is it pretty much the case no matter what you plug it in to? If it's only this system, that points to the input overload factor. If it's more universal (i.e.: it sounds fuzzybuzzy no matter what you plug it into), the solution to that particular piece of the puzzle lies elsewhere.

+1 on input gain controls being essential. Also, from experience in an acoustic duet with no bassist, where I cover the bass notes on a plugged-in acoustic and the bass whump comes from an electronic kick setup in my wife's percussion rig, you need more power and low end rsponse than you might think. Expand this out to a trio and you can see where the power requirements, even for very small venues, add up in a hurry.

We settled on a Mackie 808S brain. Speakers vary with the venue, but even with a 1 main/1 monitor setup, I've seen the output level meters peaking, and the system is putting out 300 watts per channel on those peaks. Just a thought, because what you're describing sounds like a combination of input overload and insufficient power output, especially in the low end.

The other thing that wasn't mentioned is: check and clean all of your connections and wiring. An iffy connection in your guitar signal chain, for instance, could cause a lot of this mess.

Edit to add: Evidently Dave and I were posting simultaneously

[Jimbilly]

As far as the British stuff goes; I have a pair of the powered Wharfedale mains (similar to the powered mackies), I've been loving them since I bought them well over a year ago.

[Turdus]

This is the Carvin I bought:

http://www.carvin.com/products/mixer.php?ItemNumber=C1644P

I also bought a Crown power amp, and a couple EQs, so I could use the 4 internal amps for monitors. We've used it for an outdoor show in very cold temperatures, a lot of rehearsing with cabinets, and as the console for our headphone rehearsals. This particular unit sounds great. I had the Yamaha, and a Mackie 808S to compare it to, during the 10 day trial. For only a couple hundred more than the Mackie, the Carvin does not have the same power output, but several other features that made it the winner. I thought the Mackie was a good sounding unit, and I was initially concerned how the Carvin would sound. To me, it sounded as good, if not better than the Mackie.

I've not tried the unit you listed, but keep in mind that they have a 10 day trial.

Nice...but that really looks like overkill for our needs. We play mostly small bar gigs with the acoustic act. What do you think of the amp that I listed? Do you see any glaring omitions that would defeat the purpose of upgrading?

I've never heard Carvin speakers. The issue I see with that setup is the shipping cost, at $80. If you don't like the system, you will eat that plus the return shipping. Maybe I missed something, but the package price does not really look better than the component prices, including shipping. You pay $20 more for the package shipping, but they throw in speaker cables. If you are wiiling to risk it, go for it. If it were me, I'd buy the mixer, and make a decision on it. Then buy one speaker, and make that decision. If the speaker works, then buy another.

[killertone]

I am a sound engineer for a living and run sound at venues all over Austin. Your problem is very simple. The PA-in-a-box things are great for PTA meetings but not for a musical group (unless it is the Mackie 808M which is still barely cutting it). The answer is that you need headroom. You need to get a mixer and a GOOD amp that will deliver plenty of clean power to your speakers. More speakers are blown or sound crappy (i.e. your fuzz problem) because of underpowering than because of overpowering in my experience. Ditch the PA-in-a-box and snag a nice amp that will deliver at least 500 watts of power at 8 ohms because that is probably what your PA cabs are. The QSC RMX 2402 is a great low cost choice IMO. Great amp for the $$$. You will be much happier and all of your instruments will have room to breathe. You can use the PA head to power your monitor setup. It should work fine for that. It's a pretty simple fix really.

[DavidE]

"Your problem is very simple. The PA-in-a-box things are great for PTA meetings but not for a musical group (unless it is the Mackie 808M which is still barely cutting it). The answer is that you need headroom. You need to get a mixer and a GOOD amp that will deliver plenty of clean power to your speakers."

I'm going to respectfully disagree with your premise that a PA-in-a-box is not good for this application. I, and thousands of others, do just fine with these solutions. I have the other gear and could use it if it was needed, but it's really not necessary unless you're trying to be as loud as a full band through a giant p.a. And if that's what you're trying to do, just get a full band and do it up.

I will agree that headroom and overloading is the issue as explained in my earlier post.

But a good single box mixer amp should be a fine solution for an acoustic gig in a typical club.

[killertone]

My post wasn't trying to discredit anybody so I hope that it wasn't taken that way. It's just my opinion after being a professional live sound engineer for the last ten years.

[DavidE]

My post wasn't trying to discredit anybody so I hope that it wasn't taken that way. It's just my opinion after being a professional live sound engineer for the last ten years.

Not taken that way. I just think you're wrong on this one. And that's based on 25 years of gigging experience and the gigging experience of many club-based acoustic acts.

Would your way be better? Hell yeah. I'd love to take subs, high packs, all kinds of outboard gear, etc.... but it's just not necessary for 99% of these types of gigs. And since I have to carry my gear to my acoustic gigs..... there's really no choice. ;-)

I also suggest a Rock n' Roller cart. There's really no reason to lift more than necessary.

[killertone]

My post wasn't trying to discredit anybody so I hope that it wasn't taken that way. It's just my opinion after being a professional live sound engineer for the last ten years.

Not taken that way. I just think you're wrong on this one. And that's based on 25 years of gigging experience and the gigging experience of many club-based acoustic acts.

Would your way be better? Hell yeah. I'd love to take subs, high packs, all kinds of outboard gear, etc.... but it's just not necessary for 99% of these types of gigs. And since I have to carry my gear to my acoustic gigs..... there's really no choice. ;-)

I also suggest a Rock n' Roller cart. There's really no reason to lift more than necessary.

Wow. Wrong, huh? Not trying to get in a pissing match with you (nothing is more pathetic than an internet argument) but I engineer everyday and have for a very long time. My suggestion would fix the problem and therefore is not wrong. Seems like you took what I said kind of personally. It's not a big deal. To each his own, but wrong I am not.

I never mentioned bringing subs and all of that stuff, not sure where you got that. I clearly stated that a good power amp would provide headroom and therefore clear up the fuzziness of the band in the mix. Which, by the way, is correct.

I respect the fact that you have been gigging for a long time. This is in no way a diss on you my fellow HFC bro!

[iownit4]

hey guys I gig alot with a 4 or 5 member band and sometimes do acoustic gigs to .I have a few systems mackie 808s and a 808m and a peavey 8 ch head .they all sound good and served me well.I also use 12in club series yamaha monitors,and jbl tr series mains 15's..

I think there could be a few things to look into : maybe your guitar electrionics ,does your acoustic have a 9 v battery????

does this happen in the same place or bar only ?? I played a bar 1 nite and my system had very little power no balls .. I couldn't figure it out because I gig about 2-3 times a week and never have a MAJOR problem like this 1 .. I switched power outlets and plugged in on the otherside of the stage and it worked fine..

and 1 more thing to check out ,maybe u can borrow or rent a pair of 15 inch mains ..maybe you r pushing to much for the 12's..

hope u find the problem Rob D NYC

[BCR Greg]

Yorkville.

My whole PA is Yorkville, and it kills for a small rig.

Also, you need 15" speakers to really get the sound of an acoustic in a PA. 12" speakers are great for amps, but in a PA with all the various instruments and vocals, the 12's won't give you any low end without subs. Bumping the bass will only make the tone more buggered up.

[killertone]

Yorkville.

My whole PA is Yorkville, and it kills for a small rig.

Also, you need 15" speakers to really get the sound of an acoustic in a PA.  12" speakers are great for amps, but in a PA with all the various  instruments and vocals, the 12's won't give you any low end without subs.  Bumping the bass will only make the tone more buggered up.

I worked at a company that rented Yorkville gear and the stuff was really good. It got abused by people who didn't know what they were doing and took it in stride. Good stuff that Yorkville...

[BCR Greg]

We rent it as well. Idiots cannot blow this stuff up.

[hamertek98]

Yorkville.

My whole PA is Yorkville, and it kills for a small rig.

Also, you need 15" speakers to really get the sound of an acoustic in a PA. 12" speakers are great for amps, but in a PA with all the various instruments and vocals, the 12's won't give you any low end without subs. Bumping the bass will only make the tone more buggered up.

If you're not using 15's, you need to at least try them. Vocals and 2-3 acoustics will kill most 12's in a small club setting (I use 15 in. monitors in a lot of small clubs). Killertone has the right idea... headroom is where it's at. Just because a powered head is not cranked doesn't mean it's not close to clipping. I actually tried a powered head for practice (thru mons.) and it wouldn't keep up. And our drummer was using triggers!

Poe, I feel for ya and I hope ya get it figured out real soon!