kriszguitar Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 New post on Jol's BLOG about the chambered guitars.Kris
HSB0531 Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 Thanks Kris.The Trans Black 12 is my custom order, that's why I asked.
mirrorimij Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 That is a huge difference from the days when the Artist was just routed around the f hole to simulate an undercarve. If you have a pre 1997 (maybe 98?) Artist and small fingers you can feel around in there to see what I mean.
HSB0531 Posted December 11, 2009 Posted December 11, 2009 Chambered HamersChambered HamersIt's got a nice ring to it, don't you think?
burningyen Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 Wow, that is a cool article. I remember that my '96 Artist Custom and '00 DuoTone Custom had totally different chambering. The top on my AC was "simulated undercarved" to about 1/4" and then you could feel where they just left the rest of the top flat underneath. The DC was fully undercarved to about 1/8".
bubs_42 Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 That is a huge difference from the days when the Artist was just routed around the f hole to simulate an undercarve. If you have a pre 1997 (maybe 98?) Artist and small fingers you can feel around in there to see what I mean.Thanks for that I'll keep it in mind when I go looking for an Artist in 2011. Personally I prefer my Studios Unchambered, just like the tone without it.
dboy66 Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 Personally I prefer my Studios Unchambered, just like the tone without it.+1 on the "un" preference.
veatch Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 My '96 Studio (unchambered) is still one of my main "go-to's" for lead work. But the Artist Custom and the EM Studio (chambered) have a certain articulation that i really like as well, especially for complex chords. (then again, anything more than three notes for me is "complex" )
HSB0531 Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 It's very cool that they were able to use, I'm assuming, Kaman's Aerospace division for operational modal analysis on the guitar bodies.Access to their testing equipment is a huge advantage in guitar design.
JGale Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Ummm "operational modal analysis" gives me wood!
HSB0531 Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Ummm "operational modal analysis" gives me wood! Sorry. Operational Modal Analysis is a technique that can measure modal parameters (resonances, damping, and mode shapes) without the need to measure the force going in to the structure. (from the B&K website). It's made by Bruel & Kjaer and it's called the Pulse Platform. You use it in conjunction with an accelerometer which is a transducer that measures vibration on a surface that it's mounted to. So, with this you can pick up resonant frequencies (resonances) in the wood as well as dead spots (damping) and flexing (modes). You would mount the accelerometer on different parts of the (in this case) Standards' body, and you measure and record the data at each location. You then compile all this and you can determine exactly where to route the body and in what shape and pattern. You then re-analyze the body and compare the results.
JGale Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Which is why it gives me wood. Ever work with NASTRAN?
mirrorimij Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Doesn't all that data change when you factor in wood density, moisture content, etc? No two pieces of wood are going to be the same.
BCR Greg Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 I remember being told that chambering would "hurt the guitar's tone" and that the neck and body would be "out of phase", when I begged for chambered guitars. So I ordered 6. This is the first. It worked so well that the 30th anniversaries were chambered the same way. So then I asked for chambered Standards....."No!" I was told. Eventually, they made this one.... Chambered Korina body. SICK guitar. Jol told me on the phone that it worked extremely well. So we pushed it again.... Almost full circle, but sicker. I love chambered guitars.
specialk Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Almost full circle, but sicker. I love chambered guitars. Totally sick! I love it,
HSB0531 Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Doesn't all that data change when you factor in wood density, moisture content, etc? No two pieces of wood are going to be the same. Yes and no.They'e using an Wagner L601-3 hand held moisture meter in the shop which is extremely accurate.They can calibrate the Wagner meter for specific gravity of each variety of a species of wood.They can then, accurately get a moisture content of each piece of wood, and then, the density follows suit.They also keep an eye on the moisture content and are drying the wood until they get a specific moisture content.If you keep the moisture content & shape of the wood to a close tolerance and stay with the same variety, even grain pattern mahogany for the back, your density can be held to a close tolerance. You can then acheive a chambering goal that is consistent from guitar to guitar.Obviously, you can't do modal analysis on each and every guitar or the price would be through the roof.And you can never get any two exact pieces of wood, but with Hamer's selection & attention to the wood that they use, you can have consistant chambered results from guitar to guitar.
Steve Haynie Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Can someone here describe any tone differences between a chambered and non-chambered Standard? Is it something you can only hear within certain ranges of gain on the amp? How about acoustically?
mirrorimij Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Ok. IIRC, the moisture content spec can vary buy a few percent. Even if they could dry each piece within 1% it doesn't mean it will stay that way. The entire facility would have to be the same humidity for the moisture content of the wood to remain consistent. For example, they should be able to get to within +/- .001 (positioning accuracy) on the CNC router. That doesn't mean the parts will be cut to that tolerance though. Thermal expansion will affect the wood, the fixtures, tooling, etc. My experience has been that it is entirely possible to get within a couple thousandths of an inch on critical routes (such as the neck pocket) if you want to. However, I believe they still cut the neck pockets undersize to allow for final hand fitting. Why?The reason they do that is because once the bodies are cut and brought upstairs the wood will adapt and change. It is the same reason they allow the necks to age on the shelf for awhile before they radius the fingerboard.I have no doubt the chamber has an effect. I think the extent of that effect is not universal.It could be a good marketing advantage to have access to that type of equipment. Here is your guitar, your case, your COA and a spectral analysis of your guitar.What impresses me the most about what they do know is the amount of labor that goes into each piece. Things like the chambering, the pearl logo, multi ply binding that is built up, etc show me that they are more concrned about the final result than the bottom line.
HSB0531 Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Quote, mirrorimij: IIRC, the moisture content spec can vary buy a few percent. Even if they could dry each piece within 1% it doesn't mean it will stay that way. The entire facility would have to be the same humidity for the moisture content of the wood to remain consistent. Reply, HSB0531: And the density can vary between 2% and 8% in meter calibration.But the fact that they keep a closer tolerance than probably anyone else in the industry, they can achieve the best consistancy from guitar to guitar.You can custom order a Hamer with confidence in what it will sound like.Quote, mirrorimij: I have no doubt the chamber has an effect. I think the extent of that effect is not universal.Reply, HSB0531: Yes, agreed. But the other variables are kept to such high tolerances that a single chamber pattern for that body style will consistant and very closely matched.Quote, mirrorimij: It could be a good marketing advantage to have access to that type of equipment. Here is your guitar, your case, your COA and a spectral analysis of your guitar.Reply, HSB0531: I still have the analyzer to do the frequency and vibrational testing. I used to have an accelerometer, when I used to build speaker cabinets.Quote, mirrorimij: What impresses me the most about what they do know is the amount of labor that goes into each piece. Things like the chambering, the pearl logo, multi ply binding that is built up, etc show me that they are more concrned about the final result than the bottom line.Reply, HSB0531: Yes, absolutely exceptional work, detail, thinking outside the box (vibrational testing).They are the best at what they do.
mirrorimij Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Just wanted to point out that there are words in my quote that I didn't say.
HSB0531 Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Just wanted to point out that there are words in my quote that I didn't say. Sorry for that.I was trying to add answers to your quotes and they all got grouped together.I edited the above content.
mirrorimij Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 No problem. I figured as much.I also wanted to add that I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative- that is not my intent at all. Its nice to have a discussion on topics like these. It sure beats the typical Gear Page thread on the credibility of road worn guitars.
specialk Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 It sure beats the typical Gear Page thread on the credibility of road worn guitars.+1
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