Goin' Electric

[jwhitcomb3]

I hate piezo pickups. Hate 'em. Between the non-linear compression to the weird harmonic emphasis, they just don't sound like a guitar to me. I have walked out on concerts because the piezo acoustic guitars sounded like bumblebees in my head. I have four acoustic guitars, and none of them have electronics on 'em. But I'm looking to start a band where I can play some acoustic stuff, and am looking for the right guitar for the job.

I tried a Taylor with the expressions system, and found it to be as buzzy and brassy as most piezo pickups. By that I mean it emphasized the same harmonics as a brand new set of brass acoustic guitar strings - which is why I always play phosphor bronze and play them in for a couple of days to lose that edge. And funny thing is, unamplified, the guitar sounded fine. The pickups were boosting frequencies I couldn't detect in the unamplified guitar.

Ideally, I'd like to find a thin bodied OM sized guitar with a built-in pickup system that sounds more like a mic'd small bodied acoustic guitar than a piezo. So less emphasis on the high highs, and no boomy low end (or emphasized lower mids). I'm looking for balanced tone, not beefed up.

I've never played an Ovation I like, but I'd be interested in any experiences folks have had with Rainsong, Composite Acoustics, Boulder Creek or Babicz guitars. I don't mind non-traditional designs or technologies, as long as I can get a traditional sound.

Any suggestions would be most welcome!

Thanks,

Jonathan

[edgar_allan_poe]

Why not retrofit a K&K system onto one of your acoustics? I have played a guitar with one and I thought it was the most natural sounding system I have ever played.

[jwhitcomb3]

Why not retrofit a K&K system onto one of your acoustics? I have played a guitar with one and I thought it was the most natural sounding system I have ever played.

I don't want to alter any of my acoustics, and I also wouldn't want to gig with any of them. I'd like a guitar I could dedicate as an amplified acoustic, prefarably with a smaller, thinner body.

Which K&K did you try?

-Jonathan

[geoff_hartwell]

As for not modifying instruments, I have heard great results with the soundhole pickup/internal condenser mic blended combination from Fishman on an old Martin that didn't want to be any more beat up.

If unwanted frequencies are what you're fixating on, you might want to try a 31-band, or similar very flexible EQ (or even a parametric EQ), so you can find and dial out what offends you, no matter what pickup system you choose.

Also, if you have a favorite amplified acoustic guy, you might emulate their rig. Tommy Emmanuel has had great success with his setup - simple and consistent. And he always sounds amazing.

Best of luck,

Geoff

[SteveB]

I think the Line6 "acoustic" variax sounds infinitely better than the majority of piezo outputs. I hate that sound too.

There is also the D-Tar acoustic preamp: http://www.d-tar.com/mama_bear.shtml

The Composite Acoustics I think sound pretty good. I've seen Wendy Colonna using one all the time and it's always comes through the PA quite nicely. This clip will give you an idea although the sound quality isn't spectacular:

[G Man]

http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/choosi...=m&m=OMC-1E

I would have recommended one with the aura system, but the price is a bit high for a gigging guitar. however, if price is not a worry, then by all means, consider the Martin OMC-Aura

[jwhitcomb3]

As for not modifying instruments, I have heard great results with the soundhole pickup/internal condenser mic blended combination from Fishman on an old Martin that didn't want to be any more beat up.

If unwanted frequencies are what you're fixating on, you might want to try a 31-band, or similar very flexible EQ (or even a parametric EQ), so you can find and dial out what offends you, no matter what pickup system you choose.

Also, if you have a favorite amplified acoustic guy, you might emulate their rig. Tommy Emmanuel has had great success with his setup - simple and consistent. And he always sounds amazing.

Thanks Geoff,

I'm looking to find a system, prefereably with a combination of microphones, linear sensors or magnetic pickups, that will accurately amplify the attack, decay, dynamic and frequency characteristics of an acoustic guitar. Ideally I'd like to capture the pick attack and the finger squeaks as well. I don't want to change the sound, I just want to make it louder.

The piezo sound has become so prevalent that there's a whole generation out there that thinks that acoustic guitars sound like that...and even most so called "acoustic emulator" circuits are really piezo emulators. This is my dilemma: I'm trying to avoid the sound that so many strive for. I'm not sure an EQ will counter the nonlinear piezo response.

Thanks for the tip on Tommy Emmanuel. He plays Maton guitars, and there's a dealer here in NH. I'll check 'em out!

-Jonathan

[Thundernotes]

I like the "acoustic" sound I get out of my electrics, but I have a specific purpose in mind as you know. It's not a pure acoustic sound, but I don't think I get the buzzy sound to which you refer.

I've heard the Fishman rare-earth humbucker with the additional condenser mic built-in works quite well.

[jwhitcomb3]

I like the "acoustic" sound I get out of my electrics, but I have a specific purpose in mind as you know. It's not a pure acoustic sound, but I don't think I get the buzzy sound to which you refer.

Dunno. I was mesmerized by your voice.

You play a solid body electric with piezo pickups, which sounds better to my ear than an acoustic with piezo pickups. It's just not the sound I'm looking for.

FWIW, I've had a Parker Fly, and my Daytona has an L.R. Baggs X-Bridge, and I only use(d) the magnetic pickups.

-Jonathan

[jettster]

I just picked up one of these and it sounds great straight to the board. Martin GPCPA1

It has the new Fishman F1 Aura system with 9 different image choices to blend with the bridge pickup and EQ each separately,built in tuner, all kinds of cool stuff. I played a ton of Martins and Taylors and just prefer the Martin tone. This sounds closer to the guitar's actual acoustic tone than any I've heard.

http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/choosi...mp;s=F&p=ge

[JohnnyB]

Have you tried one of these? I recommended something like this to someone who was trying to get a realistic acoustic guitar sound that rejected ambient noise for recording at home, and he said it worked really well. You could pad the clip with a little leather so it doesn't mar the finish around the soundhole.

I completely agree with your take on piezos. My bandleader plays an acoustic with piezo pickup and it compresses so much it sounds like a saxophone.

Have you thought about the Rio Grande Bone made to clip into the soundhole?

[tomteriffic]

Have you considered the Baggs I-Beam? I have one on a 12-string and there's a spot where, as I gradually turn it up, it's very difficult to tell whether I'm hearing the guitar acoustically or through the amplification system.

[burningyen]

I think the Line6 "acoustic" variax sounds infinitely better than the majority of piezo outputs.

I strongly agree with this. Go to your local store and try one out.

[jwhitcomb3]

I think the Line6 "acoustic" variax sounds infinitely better than the majority of piezo outputs.

I strongly agree with this. Go to your local store and try one out.

Thanks, I'll do this. Have they fixed the latency problem? Edited to add: it looks like the product is discontinued!

And thanks for the various pickup suggestions. My goal is to find a thin, small bodied acoustic guitar that sounds like a small, normal depth guitar when amplified. Dunno if such a thing exists, but I'm looking for a guitar/transducer combination, not just a pickup.

Thanks,

Jonathan

[burningyen]

Have they fixed the latency problem?

I hear that the latency is lower with the newest Variaxes, but they haven't released an acoustic version yet. The latency has never bothered me. It's probably one of those things where if you go in expecting to hear it, you will hear it.

[jwhitcomb3]

Have they fixed the latency problem?

I hear that the latency is lower with the newest Variaxes, but they haven't released an acoustic version yet. The latency has never bothered me. It's probably one of those things where if you go in expecting to hear it, you will hear it.

I noticed it the second I played my first Variax, before I'd ever read about it. Variax defenders claim that the lag is no longer than the time lag from an electric guitar to an amp's sound waves reaching the guitarist, ignoring that the Variax latency must be added to that time, compounding the problem.

I have a MIDI pickup that also introduces latency. I use it when I must, but don't like it much.

It sounds like the Fishman Aura system in the Martin performance series also does some Mic modeling. Jettster, do you notice any latency there?

-Jonathan

[SteveB]

I think the Line6 "acoustic" variax sounds infinitely better than the majority of piezo outputs.

I strongly agree with this. Go to your local store and try one out.

Thanks, I'll do this. Have they fixed the latency problem? Edited to add: it looks like the product is discontinued!

And thanks for the various pickup suggestions. My goal is to find a thin, small bodied acoustic guitar that sounds like a small, normal depth guitar when amplified.

If you are looking for thin small bodied and don't care about real "acoustic" sound then you definitely want to try a Variax. If it's discontinued you might find a pretty good deal somewhere. They are pretty heavy though. A friend of mine back in Colorado uses one and always loved it, I don't remember him complaining about any kind of latency issue. I was never personally fond of the feel of the neck but many people find it ok.

[jettster]

No latency that I can tell, not sure why there would be any? It doesn’t appear to be doing any massive processing to the signal. You can adjust the mix from 100% Bridge pickup to 100% image (9 different mics) or anything in between and there are separate EQ settings for each. I've played 100% either way and didn't notice any latency with either extreme setting. BTW the sound samples I've heard don't do it any justice at all.

I have an older Martin acoustic/electric that sounds great unplugged but not too impressive for recording. (Which is my primary use) Same thing with the Alvarez acoustic/electric I had. (Horrible plugged in) This new setup is very balanced tonally string to string and very natural sounding. If you didn’t live so far away I would say come over and try it out. I think you would be impressed, if you like Martin tones in general. (Some do, some don’t.)

I have some stuff I’ve been messing around with recording wise but, it’s mostly just goofing off in a smooth jazz kind of way. Melodies and lead work with some keys, doesn’t really have any strumming or chord work in it.

[Kurt L]

The piezo sound has become so prevalent that there's a whole generation out there that thinks that acoustic guitars sound like that...

Sadly, I have nothing constructive to add to this thread. But it sure is nice to find I'm not the only one who finds that tone so annoying. I've heard a (very) few people who can make them sound good. In most cases it's just the triumph of convenience over sound quality.

[RobB]

There is also the D-Tar acoustic preamp: http://www.d-tar.com/mama_bear.shtml

I can second this recommendation. My J-160e has a stereo output: one side is the P90 above the soundhole and the bridge UST is a B-Band. The P90 goes to a compressor, reverb and Valvetech VAC22 and the B-Band goes to the Mama Bear and XLR out to the board.

The D-tar gets some very convincing acoustic sounds and the blend control allows you to dial in as much UST (or soundhole pickup) as you want. I really like the Slope-shouldered Jumbo, D28, Resonator and Super Jumbo selections.

Mama bears are hard to find in stores, but if you can demo one a simple solution would be to get a Fishman soundhole pickup and Mama bear. No mods to your guitar and a nice variety of classic acoustic guitar sounds to choose from.

[burningyen]

Wow, that Mama Bear does sound really great!

[jwhitcomb3]

Over the past week I've tried out some instruments and it seems there is hope!

First, Cole Clark's face brace system sounds very good.

http://www.coleclarkguitars.com/products_innovations.asp

The down side is that they are not a retrofit: they must be built into the guitar (it is one of the integral top braces). The U.S. Patent application for this was published in September, and I'll be interested in following its progress (the patent office has sent out a non-final rejection...standard procedure, and now Clark's lawyers will have to respond). I like their small bodied guitar, the Angel, particularly with the blackwood back and sides. But the guitar is too bassy for my tastes. If they ever make a shallower bodied Angel, I may bite.

The Maton guitars are also nice, but their piezo still sounds like a piezo, though you can mix in an on-board mic in some models. FWIW, the Cole Clark also has a piezo on the bridge, but the face brace/piezo mix control also changes the crosover frequency, so you alre always getting the piezo for the low end response, but can mix where you want the high end. I think it is a good compromise: use the piezo for the low end, so you don't have a feedback problem, but use the face brace for the top end, so you can lose the buzzy-swishy-weird high end attack.

Finally, I tried a K&K system. It sounded good installed in a Larrivee dreadnaught, and I may have that installed on my Gurian. The salesperson also recommended a Fishman Aura pre-amp, so I may look into the floor version.

The other interesting device I came across was a new Swedish pickup from Ehrland:

http://www.dacs-audio.com/product_details.php?product_id=309

I hope I can find one of these to demo in the USA!

-Jonathan

[jwhitcomb3]

Taking the Gurian to have a passive K&K installed today. That's the small part. They will be resetting the neck on the Gurian as well. Gurian was one of the first builders to experiment with removable necks. His were pinned with ebony pins, and I've been waiting for years to find a local luthier with the know-how and proper tools. I finally found a luthier who used to work in Gurian's shop, and who Michael Gurian recommends for his repair work. Looking forward to reviving and renewing a great guitar!

-Jonathan