BOOGIE Mark II Users?

[soulfield]

So a good friend of mine has let me care for a nice 81 boogie mark iib head.  Its gorgeous, finger jointed cabinet with wicker facing, graphic EQ, reverb, and class A / Simul class switch (15 or 60w)  Anyhow it was his fathers, who was quite the picker and passed away many years ago.  The owner (my friend) dosent play.  It sat in an anvil road case with deteriorating foam for at least 12 years and really needed a good once over.  So I cleaned it up and took it to Andrews amp lab in Atlanta (highly recommended for service and his own amps) to get recapped and checked out top to bottom.

I love the amp but it is crazy how many options for tone there are.  4 gain stages (clean preamp and clean master affect the lead drive and lead master) and I find myself fiddling with this more than playing through it.  Im pushing a single 12 canabis rex in a pine tweed style cab.  Im usually the one saying "go try it and you'll get there" but this amp is puzzling me.  So far its been a one trick pony as I can get a great clean tone but using the drive channel at those settings sounds like ass, OK i mean good looking ass but something is just not right.  Flip side is I can set a great lead drive channel but when I go back to clean channel its just not right.  Its also the most touch sensitive amp Ive ever played.

Any Mark II or III users care to share starting points or an approach to setting this thing up for use of both?  

What cabs?

Looking for any experience with the mark II or III that you boys are willing to share!

[RobB]

MkIIs are tricky to dial in for both channels. I finally gave up and just used the gain channel w/EQ/reverb and used the guitar volume for cleans. There's a mod for MkIIIs where you can add a second master volume in place of the line out pot. This supposedly makes it easier to overcome the gain stage disparity between the channels. I don't know if it works for MkII Mesas. 

[soulfield]

Thanks Rob!  Ill likely take your approach and focus on the gain channel with buckers and P90's.  I guess simplicity is bliss sometimes.

It does take fuzz and wah amazingly.  Now that I think about it I have not put a boost pedal out front and dimed the gain channel yet.  Gonna do that ASAP

[RobB]

7 minutes ago, soulfield said:

It does take fuzz and wah amazingly.  Now that I think about it I have not put a boost pedal out front and dimed the gain channel yet.  Gonna do that ASAP

Yeah, older Boogs can take most anything you can throw at them. But, please, DON'T default to the "smiley" EQ setting! Push the mids, there are many cool sounds to be had by futzing with it. The MkIIb is the Brad Gillis tone with Ozzy. It can get huge and crushing. 

[sixesandsevens]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you should bring earplugs if you're gonna dime anything on that amp.

[django49]

It has been a while since I have spent a LOT of time with a MkII, but this much was seared into my memory....Reading from left to right, 8.75, 8. 6, 3. 5. Then set the lead gain/master relatively low until you find your ideal balance.

In order to get the gain sound I was looking for, I found I needed to set the initial clean gain high. And, no, I was not doing that much hard rock per se, but my goal was THE classic Boogie lead tone. Singing sustain. If that sounds too close to the "Santana Sound", alter to taste! Keep in mind it is not really a 2 channel amp. Rather, the gain circuits build upon the initial volume. (Yes, do use the guitar volume to clean it up. Back in the day, I wanted a not really sparkly clean, so at least it worked well for me).

Also, keep in mind the normal Mesa how to advice.......The treble is the most powerful tone control and sets the stage for both mids and bass. For a lot of people (well, back when I was young) the starting point was to set everything to 10. Not the right approach. I would start closet to 5 and season to taste. Hence, my aim for 6-ish on treble, 3 on bass, and 5-ish on mids. You probably need a lot less of the bass knob than you might think.

Yes, DO take the EQ out of the equation when setting your basic tone, THEN use it as a sweetener to give a switchable flavor......Using as a mid-boost (not totally unlike a D-thing) is only one option.

The controls tend to be very powerful, as in wide variations. You might find the difference between 5 and 5.5 to make ALL the difference.

BTW, I used primarily HB pups, so starting with the treble level seemed to make getting to the right balance a lot easier.

[Lockbody]

Great amps, but not quite as much gain as the later IIC and beyond, and not as aggressive of a sound.

I agree with Rob and treat it as a single channel amp. Experiment with treble 7-10, mids 5 and below, and bass 0-3 depending on how high you run the gain. Presence to taste, but I don't like higher settings, personally. Boogies have the tone controls pre-gain like a Fender, so a lot of bass equals a lot of mud at higher gain settings. If you're running the gain high then keep the bass control low and get your low-end back with the GEQ which is post-gain. Same with the mids.

[KH Guitar Freak]

Never had experience with one before, only the Mark series in general, like a Mark I, IV, V. I know they all sound different. Anywho, way back then, a lot of people actually shipped their IIBs back to the Boogie factory to upgrade them to the C+ variant if I'm not mistaken

[SteveB]

7 hours ago, RobB said:

MkIIs are tricky to dial in for both channels. I finally gave up and just used the gain channel w/EQ/reverb and used the guitar volume for cleans. There's a mod for MkIIIs where you can add a second master volume in place of the line out pot. This supposedly makes it easier to overcome the gain stage disparity between the channels. I don't know if it works for MkII Mesas. 

This.  As OP mentioned, the amps are super touch sensitive and very responsive to guitar controls.  I don't generally set for "kill" but setup a great crunch that can be rolled back for "clean" and use a clean boost pedal to take it over the top.   There is no "solo boost" but  these things tend to cut through like a knife anyway.

Mk IIC+ owner.

 

[Texsunburst59]

I've got an '83 MKIIC 60/100 loaded head, '84 MKIIC+ 60 watt combo,and an '84 MKIIC+ Simul-Class loaded Bubinga/Wicker Combo w/ EV speaker.

The IIC blows the others away for cleans, and the '84 IIC+ 60 sound the best of the bunch for amazing singing lead tones.

For me it's a real compromise when trying to use both channels at the same time. I never really found the place where I was happy with either tones when changing channels.

I'm happy using any of them for the best tone I can get out of them.

Here's my MKIIC amp trio.

'84 IIC+ 60 watt, '83 MKIIC 60/100 watt head, '84 IIC+ Simul-Class:

 

[RobB]

Boogs are great. They are built to such high tolerances and are bullet-proof. The early Mark series have such a, "hi-fi" sound (re: headroom), and, as previously noted, are great platforms for pedals. ANY pedals. MkIIb+, MkIIIC+, Stiletto...Mesa really sets the standard for high-end guitar amps. Mike Bendinelli is a true mensch. Always willing to listen and made all of my ex-Boogs as good as new.

Playing with a trio again I am very happy with my Splawn SS combo/Bogner 2x12 cabinet. I started off with JCM800s and have, "come home again", for lack of a better term. I am very comfortable with the modded-Marshall approach that Scott does. To me, it's "the sound of Rock." That, and the fact that 22w is plenty loud for any application I would use. Funny how after years of trying out so many amps that I eventually came back to what turned me on in the first place.

 

[Dave Scepter]

38 minutes ago, RobB said:

I am very happy with my Splawn SS combo/Bogner 2x12 cabinet. I started off with JCM800s and have, "come home again", for lack of a better term. I am very comfortable with the modded-Marshall approach that Sean does. To me, it's "the sound of Rock." That, and the fact that 22w is plenty loud for any application I would use. Funny how after years of trying out so many amps that I eventually came back to what turned me on in the first place.

Same here, I just sold my Mk III that I used for decades... just couldn't get used to  the "non user-friendly" tweaking~ then switched over to Splawn... I also have a 50w Quick rod  & a SS 6v6 22w head that are complete tonal monsters!.. "if you like hot rodded Marshalls"... much easier to use and dial in & Scott & company are second to none in customer service... build quality and customer support are the best I've seen in years!

[RobB]

40 minutes ago, Dave Scepter said:

Scott & company are second to none in customer service... build quality and customer support are the best I've seen in years!

Right, Scott Splawn. I corrected my above post. Guess I thought "Sean" sounded better? Kinda like Bob Cobb, the "maestro" on Seinfeld?

[The Shark]

I've played Mark II Boogies more than just a couple of times.  I played through a loaded Mark IIB for about three years.  I had to set the clean channel to kill.  The lead channel suffered from lack of gain.  I used the graphic EQ to balance everything out.  And pedals.

I've had Mark IIC amps too.  They are supposed to be the "holy grail".  Frankly, I think Boogies are a study in compromise. 

[RobB]

36 minutes ago, The Shark said:

They are supposed to be the "holy grail".  Frankly, I think Boogies are a study in compromise. 

Indeed. Summed up in one sentence. I think the whole Metallikatz, Mk3c+ legend thing is really overrated. Bob Rock even stated that Jaymz' sound has more to do with the resonance of the room/micing than the amp, or some such? A lot of it is hype, IMO. "THE 'Master of Puppets' amp", yaddda yadda.

Hardcore Boogie fans swear by the versatility of the MkIV, RoadKing and MkV amps. If one can utilize all those channels and tweak them to perfection, what's not to love? JeffR here has sung the praises of his MkIV (or V?) head, and I would tend to take his word for it.

I grew up with Boogies. My local, indie guitar shop in Covina, CA was one of the *first* authorized dealers of Mesa amps in the late 70's. I remember playing them all as they came through the shop...they made every other amp sound like a turd. Unobtanium then, still expensive now.

[KH Guitar Freak]

5 hours ago, SteveB said:

This.  As OP mentioned, the amps are super touch sensitive and very responsive to guitar controls.  I don't generally set for "kill" but setup a great crunch that can be rolled back for "clean" and use a clean boost pedal to take it over the top.   There is no "solo boost" but  these things tend to cut through like a knife anyway.

Mk IIC+ owner.

 

I'm honestly jealous of you. Please do give an honest review if you ever get to A/B yours with the new JP2C

[KH Guitar Freak]

4 hours ago, RobB said:

Boogs are great. They are built to such high tolerances and are bullet-proof. The early Mark series have such a, "hi-fi" sound (re: headroom), and, as previously noted, are great platforms for pedals. ANY pedals. MkIIb+, MkIIIC+, Stiletto...Mesa really sets the standard for high-end guitar amps. Mike Bendinelli is a true mensch. Always willing to listen and made all of my ex-Boogs as good as new.

Playing with a trio again I am very happy with my Splawn SS combo/Bogner 2x12 cabinet. I started off with JCM800s and have, "come home again", for lack of a better term. I am very comfortable with the modded-Marshall approach that Scott does. To me, it's "the sound of Rock." That, and the fact that 22w is plenty loud for any application I would use. Funny how after years of trying out so many amps that I eventually came back to what turned me on in the first place.

 

Funny you should say that. I was told by a good friend that works at long established dealership in Australia that there were a couple of people that bought the Mavericks when they first came out. Later many of them got sold, but funnily enough, said people who sold them tried so many other amps, and still went back to Mavericks 

 

As for me, I love Mesa Boogies to death. They truly speak to me whenever I plug any of my guitars in. It's like one dating so many other women, but there's always this one that really is just special, even if you don't have the words to describe it

[django49]

If memory serves, my first exposure to Mesa was at L.A.B Sounds (or something like that) in the San Fernando Valley in the early 80s. Pretty sure it was the same Robb Lawrence that has written about Les Paul (the man, as well as the guitar) that was running the place. Later picked up the Road King head from Jimbo at Mesa Boogie Hollywood. As per the above, it was (is) very versatile, once it is all dialed in.....Not something you do overnight. It is also a load to haul about if you take full advantage of it by using TWO cabinets. The multiple independent channels, let alone the multiple power tube combinations, made the compromises of the original 1+ channel amps a thing of the past. Not to mention an M-type setting that, if not the "real deal" was close enough for my own purposes.

The Quad Preamp (essentially two preamps, MKIIC and MKIII, in one chassis) is still fun to tweak. And makes it easier to balance out the cleans with the gain by having more footswitchable options.

Lotsa good times with Boogies!

[soulfield]

WOW!  Lots of great feedback and clearly a lot of love for the boogies!

I will certainly be taking some more time with the amp based upon the suggestions above.  Aside from the tone in my fingers not being there, santana singing lead tone sounds tasty!  My initial experience with the head was great but a little overwhelming with those four gain stages and the way they interact.  

I'll get some feedback and maybe a recording up in week or so.

Behind the eightball on creating my first NGD for the hamers that have come into my hands lately (4 total)!  Maybe I can be redeemed by recording a track with all of them used????

Seriously I appreciate all the feedback on the mesa boogie mark amps - You guys are awesome!

[KH Guitar Freak]

9 hours ago, RobB said:

Indeed. Summed up in one sentence. I think the whole Metallikatz, Mk3c+ legend thing is really overrated. Bob Rock even stated that Jaymz' sound has more to do with the resonance of the room/micing than the amp, or some such? A lot of it is hype, IMO. "THE 'Master of Puppets' amp", yaddda yadda.

Hardcore Boogie fans swear by the versatility of the MkIV, RoadKing and MkV amps. If one can utilize all those channels and tweak them to perfection, what's not to love? JeffR here has sung the praises of his MkIV (or V?) head, and I would tend to take his word for it.

I grew up with Boogies. My local, indie guitar shop in Covina, CA was one of the *first* authorized dealers of Mesa amps in the late 70's. I remember playing them all as they came through the shop...they made every other amp sound like a turd. Unobtanium then, still expensive now.

Well, the IIC+ hype also reaches to many other artists. There are so many 80s hits back then that had a IIC+ on both recordings and live shows. I don't think I'll ever pay that much for a IIC+, especially with the JP2Cs out. But hey, never say never

[Texsunburst59]

2 hours ago, KH Guitar Freak said:

Well, the IIC+ hype also reaches to many other artists. There are so many 80s hits back then that had a IIC+ on both recordings and live shows. I don't think I'll ever pay that much for a IIC+, especially with the JP2Cs out. But hey, never say never

Like anything else, if you're patient, you can find most anything at a price you're willing to pay.

I bought my '84 IIC+ 60 combo with road case for $900. I bought my '84 IIC+ fully loaded Bubinga/ Wicker combo w/ road case for $1200.

I got my '83 IIC 60/100 watt head for $600.

Patience is your friend if you're diligent and take your time and search for the gear you want.

It has always worked for me.

[stonge]

Boogies are okay lol...

I play a tele, so I keep the clean side punchy (pre above 6-7) and get a little drive on the lead channel as shown:

The tele has a Duncan Broadcaster in the bridge with a Duncan vintage style in the neck; gets a little woofy for my tastes combining both pickups on the 4 way switch (the fatter les paul-ish tone) but the other three traditional settings on the switch are fine.  I'll try dialing in with my Shishkov this weekend.

IMHO you need to keep channel 1 high on the pre-gain to give the lead channel something to work with (otherwise it's sorta weak).

[KH Guitar Freak]

45 minutes ago, Texsunburst59 said:

Like anything else, if you're patient, you can find most anything at a price you're willing to pay.

I bought my '84 IIC+ 60 combo with road case for $900. I bought my '84 IIC+ fully loaded Bubinga/ Wicker combo w/ road case for $1200.

I got my '83 IIC 60/100 watt head for $600.

Patience is your friend if you're diligent and take your time and search for the gear you want.

It has always worked for me.

That is true as well. However, I doubt a mint condition IIC+ would come up fairly cheap

[Jeff R]

After owning IIs, IIIs (every stripe series), IVs and Vs, my favorite is the green-stripe (last revision) III. It has my favorite gain channel and I get "good enough" with its sister modes. My latest and last III (hopefully) is in Petaluma getting the A-to-Z TLC treatment, including adding a R2 volume pot on the back chassis and tweaking the reverb circuit for my supplied preferred settings (Mark series reverb circuits are rarely as lush as say a Fender combo's circuit). The III I sent off is the one that I recently bought used online and we questioned if the circuit had been tweaked aftermarket. Maybe that's why it belched a little preamp section smoke up a couple weeks ago, hence the trip to California. 

My favorite Mark for clean sounds was the Mark V (cloned off the Lone Stars I'm told) but I never could get the high gain channel as aggressive and soulful as a III's lead channel, so the V and I parted ways last year. I'd love to play around with that new Petrucci signature Mark, but I'm staying away because my wallet doesn't need to go there.

The II and IIB are not as able to get modern gain as the later stuff. The IIC and C+ are where you start getting into III/IV'esque territory. I personally like the green-stripe III more than the IIC+ or the IV - maybe it's just the examples I've played through. Like others said above, I'd personally treat a IIB as a one-channel amp with a glorious power section that loves pedals. Dial a good clean to pushed and put your OD or dist of choice up front. Watch your bass. I'd probably be at "2" or "3" for humbuckers and "4" or "5" for singles. Yes, the controls are that finicky, they like different pickups different ways. They even react to pickup height in my experience. Back to the bass control ... anything above what I put numerically and you're in pharty territory unless you are trying to play very clean clean. The presence control can be a sleeper too as far as overall aggression or lack thereof.

That first volume stage is the alpha-omega for what and where you're going - it dictates all the shit behind it. Keep that in mind and play around with that. Think "around 6" for big clean" with more aggression as you continue (subtle) turning clockwise. And as you'd suspect, that V1 is going to change proportionally to where you're parking your master vol. Be ready to play around, tweak and re-tweak. Be thankful you have a generation with relatively few knobs/push-pulls/switches. A Mark V is like a modern jet cockpit with a speaker attached to it. Fucking insane.

Boogie's manuals from back in the day (free and online at their website) often included "instant gratification" settings that are/were great starting points to figure out what the hell is in front of you. A quick perusal indicates some suggested sample settings ... http://www.mesaboogie.com/media/User Manuals/Mark IIb.pdf

I expect M/B to call me in the next couple of days with the diagnosis on my III, their course of action and my cost. I'll ask them for shits and giggles how much a IIB to C+ conversion costs while I'm on the phone with them.

One last thing. Play with a closed-back extension cab if you have one. I love the head/cabs and kinda meh at the combos for what my ears and hands want. That much of a night-and-day difference.

 

[SteveB]

^^^

I had a III one time ( blue stripe I think) that was basically the crunch tone every Marshall wish it had.   No "clean" headroom though.