Preamp Tubes: Which do you use? Current production

[tbonesullivan]

So, I've been preamp tube swapping with my various amps a lot, which apparently is now called "tube rolling". For a lot of the amps we use, this can have a pretty big effect on the tone that comes out. As someone who got into the tube game long after the big stocks of surplus tubes dried up, I am limited mostly to the current production tubes. To make things worse, since I started back around 10 years ago, two of the better tube factories closed, the EI factory in Yugoslavia, and the S.E.D. factory in St Petersburg Russia. We're left with the Teslovak factory in the Czech Republic, which makes JJ tubes, the Xo-PUL/Reflektor plant in Saratov Russia that makes Sovtek and New Sensor tubes, and the Shuguang factory in China that makes a lot of tubes for the Ruby brand of tubes. All of these make tubes which are marketed under various other names as well, as they are OEM suppliers for Fender, Marshall, Mesa Boogie, Bogner, etc etc etc.

Anyhow, what is everyone using from the current production? Where are you using them? Any bad experiences? Good experiences?

To start off, in case anyone doesn't know, Sovtek LPS tubes, Electro Harmonix 12AX7 tubes, Tung- Sol Reissue, Mullard Reissue, and several others preamp tubes made in the Reflektor plant have Spiral filaments. These barely light up, as the filament is spiral shaped, and completely enclosed inside the plate structure. This spiral filament also helps reduce noise, as AC filament hum will be cancelled out. Many more modern amps use DC filament heaters for the first two preamp tubes, which eliminates the need for spiral filaments.

However, these spiral filaments do have a downside, which is that they get torched if put into a Cathode Follower spot. This puts a very high voltage on the cathode, and if this is too great you can get arcing between the filament and cathode on these spiral filament tubes, which makes them last not long at all. Cathode follower spots are not used in all amps. Very few Mesa Boogie amps use them, however I know my Marshall TSL122 has one, so I made sure it has a different type of tube in it.

Anyway, some of my current production favorites:

Sovtek 12AX7LPS: Great warm sound. GREAT phase inverter, which is the last tube before the power section. It has long plates (hence the LP name), so I would not use this as a V1 (input driver) in a combo. I have it in a Carvin X-100B Head from the 90s though, and it KILLS. Also kills the hum as that amp has AC power supply to the V1 tube filament.

Electro Harmonix 12AX7: Great all around tube, and relatively inexpensive. Short plate structure and spiral filaments. Nice low noise and a good sound. Nice overdriven sound too.

Chinese/Sino/Shuguang 12AX7A 9th Gen: These are OEM and relabeled a ton, so you will see them everywhere. Ruby relabels them a ton, and I think you see them in Carvin, Fender, Bogner, Rivera, and other amps. These do not have the most headroom but are great for overdrive.

Ruby "Silver Special": This is a special order Chinese tube with uncoated plates. They sound really warm and have a great overdrive sound. I think they aren't making this model anymore, so get them if you can.

Tung-Sol 12AX7 Reissue: One of my favorites for V1. Nice sound, low noise, compact plate structure. Not the most gain, but not the least.

JJ ECC83S: Mesa Boogie's current choice for 12AX7 tubes. High gain, low noise. They do sound somewhat dark compared to other tubes, but some like that.

I also picked up the new Mullard reissue preamp tubes, and will get a chance to try them out soon. I got one of the long plate, and one of the small plate versions. I also need to try out some of the Ruby Tubes Chinese mullard and sovtek style tubes they are making now.

[veatch]

Agree on  the Sovtek 12AX7LPS for the PI. 

I've been using Ruby 12AX7AC5 HG+ for V1, and Ruby 7025 SS HG for V2. 

I haven't monkeyed with the combo over the past number of years, and there are a number of folks here that know a sh*t-ton more about tubes than I do. I'll be interested in other opinions, here....

[Armitage]

I haven't come across a recent new tube I like, but I really haven't tried many either... I do know the JJ preamp tubes sound like a blanket was thrown over my amp.

[murkat]

not a fan of JJ's. That's just me.

Tung- Sol Reissues, Mullard Reissues, have been okay.

I usually have have a stash of old Mil specs, GE, RFT's, etc. to get by with when needed.

even an old tired pre amp tube sounds better than what is offered new these days.

 

[veatch]

Agreed, but I never built much of a stash of the old stuff until it was too late. 

[tbonesullivan]

16 minutes ago, veatch said:

Agreed, but I never built much of a stash of the old stuff until it was too late. 

Yep, and now you have to pony up some serious $$$ if you want to get one of the more desirable brands, even tested used tubes. 90-100 for used Mullards and Amperex. Around 80 for NOS GE, Philips, Sylvania, JAN, etc. For the more budget minded, 20-30 gets you tested pulls of various manufacturers. I picked up a few, so I've got some CBS tubes and a Westinghouse, but everything else is new made. thankfully the old military production tubes pretty much last forever.

[LucSulla]

I too like that Sovtek LPS for that job.  I use Millard RIs or Tung Sols in V1, either those or EHs for the other gain stages, and usually JJs for the loop and reverb slots because they are cheap. 

[Caddie]

I'm not a tube sniffer. If it glows orange it is my current favorite.  To me a matched pair has the same logo on them.  Perhaps if I bought boutique tubes my boutique amps would have sounded more boutiqee.  I can't recall a tube failure in any amp I've owned.  Oh wait I did change a preamp tube on my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe in an attempt to tame that vicious drive channel. I remember that i swapped out a 12ax7 for a 12at7 somewhere.  It didn't have a huge effect on restraining the animal. You can't take the Tasmanian Devil out of the Drive channel in a Hot Rod Deluxe without surgery to the preamp board.  At least that's what i learned on the various Fender Forums.  Doesn't matter anymore, it was released back into the vast guitar gear ocean.  

 

Vicious looking little bastard, yes?  Certainly has the weapons for it.  Looks like my ex-wif du jour demanding a 3rd turkey leg at Thanksgiving dinner.  Nobody had the balls to tell her that turkeys came with 2 legs.  I raced to Boston Market and bought a dozen legs.  Hey, you can always thaw them out next Thanksgiving.  

Early Happy Thanksgiving!  Just got myself jonesing for turkey.  Lunch at Boston Market tomorrow!

caddie

 

Cheers!

caddie

[gorch]

I'm not much an expert on that. The other day I had replaced the power tubes in the Vox with JJs. Can't say I'm not happy with them. 

TAD tubes from German Tube Amp Doctor have not been mentioned yet. They run their own brand for many years and seem quite popular. I cannot say where they get them from.

[tbonesullivan]

Groove Tubes, Tube Amp Doctor, PM Tubes (UK based), Ruby, Penta, Mesa Boogie, etc all get their tubes from a variety of sources, which are usually the same three plants still in production: Slovakia, Russia, and China.  If you check out Doug's Tubes www.dougstubes.com he notes often which tubes end up relabeled by various distributors.

I guess this is a good time to mention the trio of "budget" sovtek tubes, which are also OEM for many makers:

Sovtek 12AX7WA: Ok output, with a somewhat thin sound. These are rebadged as Groove Tubes GT12AX7-R and are used as OEM by a ton of manufactures. Very rugged, resistant to microphonics

Sovtek 12AX7WB: Like the WA, but with a nice low end bump, and more overall gain. These are also used as OEM by various makers.

Sovtek 12AX7WC: Supposedly a bit better for some uses than the 12AX7WB.

The only tubes I would probably ever buy would be the WB and WC, mainly because my carvin amps came new with a lot of the WAs, so I've got plenty. I use them as reverb driver tubes, due to their ruggedness and long life.

[tbonesullivan]

8 hours ago, LucSulla said:

I too like that Sovtek LPS for that job.  I use Millard RIs or Tung Sols in V1, either those or EHs for the other gain stages, and usually JJs for the loop and reverb slots because they are cheap. 

If you're on a budget, usually the input stage (V1) on the amp and the phase inverter are where you want to spent the money. Power tubes help, but most of the current designs are pretty reliant on preamp overdrive, and with the negative feedback in the power section I have heard getting any type of power tube distortion is close to impossible.

Reverb drivers and Tremolo Drivers are usually the "least concern" for me.  Problem sometimes though is figuring out which tube does what. Mesa Boogie schematics are easy to read, as are Carvin schems. Marshall schems are damn near impossible to read regarding tube assignments.

[Bloozguy]

18 hours ago, murkat said:

even an old tired pre amp tube sounds better than what is offered new these days.

This^^^^

[Montelovesco]

Call me a blockhead, but I never cared much about the tubes in my Carvin V3m. After reading this thread - maybe I should?

So if any of you has an idea or an suggestion what would fit best - any hint is very much appreciated...

[tbonesullivan]

1 hour ago, Montelovesco said:

Call me a blockhead, but I never cared much about the tubes in my Carvin V3m. After reading this thread - maybe I should?

So if any of you has an idea or an suggestion what would fit best - any hint is very much appreciated...

The stock tubes in mine were a mixture of Chinese 9th gen and JJ preamp tubes. I think Carvin was using PM tubes and/or Groove tubes since then. I am currently using:

V1: Tung Sol Reissue

V2: Ruby 7025SS Silver Special

V3: JJ ECC83S

V4: Electro Harmonix 12AX7

I just did this change literally 2 days ago. I had the JJ in the V2 slot, and a 9th Gen Chinese in the V3 slot. The Silver Special definitely has a warmer overdrive sound. The JJ can be kind of dark in that position, which is the primary overdrive generating tube for the two overdrive channels.

[Montelovesco]

Thanks a lot! Looks like there is - after guitars and pedals - new territory to explore...

[JohnnyB]

I have tubes both in my guitar amps and stereo preamp and phono stage.

I tend to favor NOS military surplus tubes--many from the '80s--for their sound quality, durability, and affordability compared to the legendary tubes from Bugle Boy, Telefunken, and the like. 

I've lucked into some good values over the years. I replaced the stock Chinese tubes in my new-in-1998 Top Hat Club Deluxe Philips JAN NOS 12AX7WAs for the preamp section, a matched pair of NOS RCA greyglass 6V6GT power tubes for $24 (about 1/2 to 1/3 the going rate), and a NOS RCA Japan GZ34 rectifier for $25 (USA and European NOS were $100 and up), and that went well too.

I never did any tube rolling on my used MesaBoogie DC-10 because I liked the way it sounded, and the cost of matched NOS quads of 6L6s was just too much money for living room noodling. I have a Trace-Elliott Velocette that came with Tesla (now JJ) EL84 tubes that the AC-15-style amp was eating like popcorn. I stumbled on a vintage tube store just a few miles from my house and picked up the NOS GE version for $10 ea. and 19 years later they're still in there after lasting through my daughter's 3 seasons of high school stage band.

In my stereo line stage I bought in 2012, I swapped out the gain tubes and out-of-production rectifier for mil-spec NOS versions. Liked 'em better--more durable, lower noise floor, richer sound, and didn't cost much. I bought the matching phono stage two years later and went through some swaps from 6Dj8 to 6922 to 7308, but didn't get the low noise floor I wanted until I scored some Soviet military surplus 6N1Ps for around $4 each. Man! that fixed the noise level and set a new standard for dynamic range.

 

 

[tbonesullivan]

Preamp tubes definitely last a while, and the military ones often can last the life of the amp or longer. Power tubes take a lot more of a beating, so it's rare to find used pulls that test like new.

Also, Tube Depot just announced an NOS sale, and they have Jan GE tubes down from 80 to 60: https://tubedepot.com/products/jan-ge-12ax7wa

The Tube Store has NOS RFT Tubes as well: http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/12AX7-ECC83-Tube-Types/RFT-ECC83-12AX7

When you see the prices that the "selected" and treated new production tubes are going for, $60 for vintage NOS is awesome.

Regarding Tesla and JJ, they are the same but not the same. The factory is in the same location, and I think maybe even a good part of the machinery is too. However, they are two distinct companies, and the JJ tubes, while the same structural design, do not sound as good as the original TESLA tubes.

 

[crunchee]

I don't go through preamp tubes, really...I can't remember the last time I ever had to replace one.

I don't shop much for tubes anymore, either...last time I bought any preamp tubes, besides a few good 12AT7s as spares (which I never needed,BTW) for some old Fenders I used to have, was probably at least 15-20 years ago, when Kendrick amps had a 'garage sale' ad in Vintage Guitar Magazine.  I ordered a random batch, and much to my surprise, I got some Teslas for cheap there:   

The brand of the preamp tubes on sale wasn't advertised IIRC but I definitely wanted as many Teslas as I could get my hands on (like as in my first order) , so I ordered another batch, and wound up with some Shugangs and Sovteks from Kendrick, but no more Teslas.    The Shugangs and Sovteks have served as my 'replacement' tubes since then, usually to swap out with any 'old' tubes in my Fender tube amps. 

Funny thing is, 20-25 years ago, it was nothing to find the original preamp tubes and often the original power tubes too, still installed in old Blackface and Silverface Fender amps, back when I was buying and playing through bunches of them.  I wasn't 'flipping' amps at the time, just to flip them; but I was simply using them for awhile, then selling them after I was done in order to get something different to try or use afterwards.  From time to time, and since I had plenty of 'recent' Sovtek/Shugang tubes to put in whatever amps I was getting rid of (thanks to my Kendrick purchases), I would swap out old preamp tubes for new as I went, before selling the amp(s), and harvested the old tubes for myself; so I wound up with a decent small stash of 12AX7/7025/ECC83 tubes, which (not including the Teslas) were mostly 60's and 70's RCAs, some GEs, and one or two Telefunken!; or unknown US brands (probably Sylvanias) if they were early '80's Fender-labeled.  But that was back when some old Blackface & Silverface Fender amps were still cheap and plentiful, like Champs, Vibro-Champs, Bassman heads, and Bandmaster heads--the 'second tier' vintage stuff.  Of course, I didn't help the originality issue any by tube swapping/harvesting, I suppose; but it wasn't like I was 'consuming in mass quantities' (as the Coneheads used to say), either!   

[Montelovesco]

Talking bout tubes: I gotmsome tubes laying around here, not sure if they are still good. How do I test this (without putting 'em in and out my amp)?

[tbonesullivan]

2 hours ago, Montelovesco said:

Talking bout tubes: I gotmsome tubes laying around here, not sure if they are still good. How do I test this (without putting 'em in and out my amp)?

You would need a tube tester, which unfortunately are not cheap nor easy to find. Also a lot of the used ones out there are decades old and designed to test a ton of different tubes, and you almost need to take a class on vacuum tube theory to know how to use them.

Are these old production, or new production?

[Disturber]

If I buy new 12AX7s, I would buy these:

I like the Sovtek 12AX7LPS and Tung-Sol 12AX7 tubes. They sound very good.

I have a reissue 12AX7 Mullard that I think sounds good too.

The Sovteks, Tungsols and the Mullard 12ax7s I have are all cryo treated. I orderd a bunch of cryo tubes when I bought new caps for my Marshalls some years ago. I have no idea if they sound better than the original non treated versions. Would love to do a blind test on these.

I have a bunch of old NOS 12ax7s in a drawer. Love the old Brimar's they are my favourites. But I am running out of them.

Don't like the JJ 12ax7's. Everytime I replace them with something else it hits me that the amp suddenly sounds better. They just have a harsh quality to them. And they break down all the time. 

[tbonesullivan]

I definitely have been happy with most of the Sovtek made reissue tubes. They do sound good, to my ears anyway. WAY better than the JJ tubes. JJ does have now an ECC83MS, which is a longer plate, though not as long as their ECC803S. Might have a better sound.

I'm really fighting the urge to pick up some NOS Jan GE or RFT tubes... but man $60 a tube is a lot just because they have a box. The tested used tubes are just a better value.

[Caddie]

get a tube tester.

They are not very expensive unless you want a Hickok.  I sold my tube tester to somebody here (and i have not been banished...yet) IIRC its a highly respected, long time HFCr who moved from CO to TX  The tester was an Accurate 157 ($80+/-) perfect for all the tubes we will see in guitar amps.  Not just a go/no go result.  A meter with ranges (good-ok-useless & numbers (in Persian, but hey).check the link to ebay - sold tube tester.  Don't bother with with current listings,  the sold price is what the market will bare, significantly different from the "hopefull" prices in the listings

just my $0.02

caddie

 

[Caddie]

On 28/06/2017 at 1:53 AM, tbonesullivan said:

You would need a tube tester, which unfortunately are not cheap nor easy to find. Also a lot of the used ones out there are decades old and designed to test a ton of different tubes, and you almost need to take a class on vacuum tube theory to know how to use them.

Are these old production, or new production?

tbone with all due respect I disagree

• cheap is in the eye of the buyer.  you can get a cheap, without cloth wrap insulation (20th century), yep probably decades old cuz that was the last time vacuum tubes were made on this side of the Berlin Wall.
• easy to find on ebay, gear page, tube-o-phile websites & forums, etc  there it is! top of the list & 9th on the list  sold for $36 and $51.
• They come with manuals for the selector switches for hundreds of tubes.  So skip the class with Prof John Ambrose Fleming (google him)
• after i sold my tube tester.  I found a couple dozen tubes in yet another shoebox as i packed up the basement workshop.  I went to our much maligned local Guitar Center talked nice to the kid behind the counter (who still had the disconcerting aroma of a french fryer) sure mister I can test those right up for ya!  No charge cuz I was batting my purty brown Holstein eyes at him.  30min later.  Here ya go mister.  The useless ones are in this paperbag, The ones that tested OK are in this ziplock big. The ones that tested good are individually wrapped in paper towel and back in the shoebox.  Little Buddy you rock.  here's a $10.  I can't take that mister.  bullshit, you can and you will take it.  Its that or its back to the fry machine

Again please tbone, my points are based on my own personal experiences & backed by the link. Certainly your mileage may vary and is respected, not dismissed.

caddie

[tbonesullivan]

My bad. I was thinking of the more recent tube testers like the VTV tester, which characterizes preamp tubes, does all the usual testing, and also tests for microphonics, noise etc.

I also have some gearhead friends plug their $2500 guitar into their hand wired deluxe reverb clone, without even checking the safety ground in an old barn. I tend to unconscously try to dissuade people from gear that can blow up their tubes if not careful. I'd also hate for them to not have the tester set up right for a power tube, and read a bad one as good.

Anyhow, I really should get some type of tube tester, mainly for the old power tubes I have laying around, or even the current ones. Might be a good thing to use to test to see if any tubes are gonna go bad.

I also just got in some more tubes, because I'm addicted. Got some more ANOS tubes. Two JAN Philips 12AX7WAs, and one Groove Tubes 7025, which in the beginning were Tungsram Hungary ECC83 tubes. It's got the foil square on the getter support indicating this.