Jason Becker - Paganini's 5th Caprice

[chap]

I found my next project, funny part is that I actually think I can do it. LOLOL

[Moose]

I do NOT want to make this sound like I'm denigrating his skill. I'm not. That's damned good. And I think he's a fantastic guitarist, in whole.

But... it's not musical.

My big problem with shredder guys is that pick hash sounds like ASS. And when these heavy distorted guitars are played at "how fast can I go" speed, all I hear is scratch scratch scratch scratch scratch scratch scratch scratch scratch scratch... oh yeah, and some scales underneath it.

Someone posted a Gary Moore clip recently where he runs some scales at a goodly clip. Not like this, but still fast enough. And every note sounds good from attack to release except for a couple of sections where the effect adds to tension. It may be comparing apples to Fords, but the dynamic content of the music lets me hear MUSIC, not scratchy shit with an impressively fast scale hidden in the hash.

I guess the Paganini stuff is cool in the way a sprinter is cool when he sets a record in the 100 meters. DAMN is he fast, but it's only entertaining to me for the spectacle. Not for the musicianship.

[Guest JackButler]

Not a fan of the tone.. but I wouldn't be so fast to judge what's music and what's not.

I dig a lot of the shred guys and I admire anyone who's put enough shed time in to memorize and pull off a Paganini piece.

Jason had a way too short career.. who knows where he would've went and the fact that he's STILL making music from a hospital bed with only his eyes is absolutely phenomenal and should serve as a kick in the ass for anyone who thinks.. "I can't/couldn't do that."

I could always voice my opinion on what I did or did not like.. but last I checked.. I didn't have any gold or platinum albums hanging on the walls and the last time I got sick or was in a hospital bed, I didn't have EVH come and sit with me at my bedside... nor have I been on the cover of any major guitar magazines..

and I haven't writtne anything yet that has been around and stood the test of time like anything Paganini did either.. so again as far as judging what IS or IS NOT music.. don't think I'll go there..

Chap, if you think you can do this piece; then I'd say you're half way there. If you can see and hear yourself doing it.. you can make it happen.. its just a little time in the woodshed and I'm pretty sure there's a tab floating around out there for it. Go for it!

[Ethan]

That's probably some cheapass gear being recorded by a (at this point) near-vintage video camera microphone too...not exactly a recipe for audio fidelity.

[harry65]

guys , he was 17 when he did this!!!!!!!!!! in his bedroom at is parents house, it's an almost impossible piece to play on guitar and he does it at true violin speed, if ya have a prob with the piece complain to niccolo paganini , kid is just playin it note for note, jason was a huge influence on me 20 years ago , i'll always love him, god bless ya jason....................

[edgar_allan_poe]

No, you guys are missing the point of Moose's criticism.

He said it wasn't "musical", he did *not* say it wasn't music. I actually agree with his assessment. I am also aware of the fact that he was a seriously young dude with terrible recording equipment at the time of the recording.

The technique is just jaw dropping. Becker was an amazing talent. But Moose is right IMHO. These pieces do not translate well to overly distorted heavy metal guitar tones. The amount of gain used on most of these pieces causes that harsh pick tone that really grates on the ears.

I sense that Moose's criticism was more directed at the genre of this piece than the actual piece itself.

Again, I cannot see *any* guitar player watching that video not appreciate the technique it would take to play that piece as well as Becker does. It really is astounding.

His is a truly sad story. I cannot imagine the horror of that disease. I would have been insane a long time ago from sheer frustration. Imagine having full mental faculties and absolute zero physical ability...(poe shudders at the horror of that)

JMHO

[polara]

Guess I'm just a dinosaur but I appreciate fantastically technical guitar music more when it's performed on a nylon-string instrument. The beauty of high-gain electric guitar to me is in the ability to use it for bends, long sustained notes, and certain legato techniques. I ain't anti-technique... one of my favorite players is Joscho Stephan who does it with steel strings... but yeah I'm not a big fan of "shred: for the reasons cited above.

[jettster]

Queue Talking Heads song

Same as it ever was!!!

[zenmindbeginner]

I agree with you Moose, pick hash sounds HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!

It could have everything to do with the low action, tiny strings and crappy recording on a shitty camcorder's built in mic. The camcorders built in microphone is causing the signal to be overloaded with too much odd order harmonics. The odd order harmonics cause the metallic and trashy sound that we are hearing.

I've heard Jason's sound from this period (1989) live at one of his gigs (Carvin amps) and the video's sound isn't anything like what I heard. For the most part, the harsh and metallic pick hash sound is coming from overloading the camcorder's pathetic recording circuitry.

Interesting enough, I have a Line6 X3 unit and that pick hash sound is built into a few of the high gain models when you crank the gain all of the way! lol! An SD JB in the bridge produces a similar hashy sound, but vintage Dimarzio PAFs make a real bassy almost sub frequency pick hash. If it's 1987, then you can bet that he is using a JB to make that horrible sound.

Gary Moore plays with his action a bit higher and with larger strings. Larger strings and higher action usually results in more even order harmonics. Yngwie Malmsteen has always matched virtuoso playing with a somewhat vintage sound... many even order harmonics are found in his tone.

Well, if it's 1987 blame Laney amps! lol!

[chap]

Yea I realize that shred is dead but that's one of the things about music ... you really have complete freedom to do whatever you want. So if you wanted to combine classical music with shred you can do it. If you wanted to throw away the metonome and show your RCM (Royal Conservatory of Music) teacher the door ... you can do it too.

Plus I've been following Jason Becker since his Caucaphony days with Marty Friedman. In some ways it must be worse than death to be that good and on the brink of success to fall to a disease like Lou G's. I mean, we're talking a success story in the making along the lines of Zakk Wylde being picked by Ozzy at 18 years old.

[stonge]

The Caprices don't sound much more "musical" when performed by Itzhak Perlman:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000TETAN...0576&sr=8-1

or Eliot Fisk:

http://www.amazon.com/Paganini-24-Caprices...0777&sr=8-1

My understanding is that these were basically exercises to develop and challenge technically advanced players - throwing down the "can you play this?" gauntlet back in the day.

Disregarding the 80's tone and craptacular recording quality (which is probably surpassed by modern cellphones lol), Jason's technique is pretty impressive. This is one player who I wish had been allowed to continue developing his skills to fruition. It is amazing that he is still alive, nevermind composing music. Kudos to him for not giving in to the disease.

[burningyen]

stonge has it right. Paganini's compositions were more platforms to show off what he could do than they were great music. He wasn't a great composer, but he sure was a great showman. Violinists still call his pieces and the genre they inhabit "showtunes."

So I wouldn't put all of the blame on Jason Becker for the unmusicality of that clip. But it's not all the piece's fault, either.

[geoff_hartwell]

Wow. Bunch of haters. Just to throw a little gasoline - I've personally never heard a player who could actually PLAY this material accurately say something so dismissive about the material OR the players.

There was a terrific transcription of the entire 5th Caprice in GuitarOne by Yngwie Malmsteen,

along with an incredibly articulate play-by-play annotation by Yngwie himself.

Michael Fath did a transcription of all 24 caprices that is killer as well.

It's not the focus of my journey, but there's a lot to be learned.

Different strokes for different folks, different sweeps for different peeps.

Geoff

[zorrow]

I kinda like it, mostly because his partner in crime (one guy whose name is Marty Fridman ) is one of my biggest inspirations and influences ever.

I admit though I'm not into that shred stuff anymore, so maybe at this point I could only play some fragments of that caprice --mostly the parts Steve Vai played in his "Eugene's trick bag", as I learned that thing once, long time ago.

Anyhow, I no longer have the patience to learn the whole Paganini caprice, and anyway shredding for me has become more "a tool" than anything else.

All that said, nowadays I still think Jason Becker is a highly talented player. Even at the tender age of 16 he was already able to play like that. Fuck his tone then and just dig his skills. Wasn't he a virtuoso? Of course he was, and that's the sole point of that video! And if you ever listened to what came after, you already know he was musically much more than just shredding for the sake of it.

So said, even if you don't like shred (add "anymore" in my case, or "at all" in some others'), you can still expand your horizons by giving a listening to Jason Becker's "Perpetual Burn", which IMHO stands out as one of the best albums of the genre ever.

Shred on!

[Guest JackButler]

In the case of Yngwie.. he uses .008s and despite EVERYTHING he's every said about how he loves his action high.. I was fortunate to actually hold and play "The Duck" back in 1989 and the action was what I would consider low.. not as low as mine..but low..

Steve Lukather was another guy I was fortunate enough to talk to once.. his words: "I'm using .009s.. if somebody wants to tell me I've got bad tone.. F*&K 'EM!"..lol.

[Moose]

Not a fan of the tone.. but I wouldn't be so fast to judge what's music and what's not.

I could always voice my opinion on what I did or did not like.. but last I checked.. I didn't have any gold or platinum albums hanging on the walls and the last time I got sick or was in a hospital bed, I didn't have EVH

So, maybe what I get from this is that I can't have an opinion on what I like unless I have gold albums and am friends with Eddie Fan Halen? Or that I should just keep it to myself? Kind of obviates the whole internet discussion board thing, doesn't it?

Seriously, man. Go back, reread what I wrote, how it was my opinion on what I like and dislike about shredder tone. And I state it clearly, with emphasis on what specifically I find generally amazing. I even made a clear statement "That's damned good" to try and focus my statement.

You're setting up a straw man argument. You took "I don't think shredder tone is musical sounding" and turned into "I'm all high holy God in charge of music and I deem this to be NOT music". There's a huge difference between the two statements. Mostly that I expressed the first, and the second has nothing to do with my statements or opinions at all.

Have a little more respect for me than that.

The Caprices don't sound much more "musical" when performed by Itzhak Perlman:

Thanks for the links! I actually think both of their tones are generally better than shred tone for this sort of thing. But Perlman's is obviously less delicate than with less demanding pieces. But that's part of the point with Paganini in general.

My understanding is that these were basically exercises to develop and challenge technically advanced players - throwing down the "can you play this?" gauntlet back in the day.

Exactly. Paganini was the Robert Johnson of his day -- the man who was said to have sold his soul to the devil to be able to play that well. As a side note, he played also guitar even though it was considered a vulgar instrument compared to violin, because it helped him to woo the ladies.

Back to the point. This is spectacle. It's technique. And it's damned good, as a very wise man once pointed out in this very thread. But it's about pointing out that you're blazingly fast -- which Becker was. Man I wish he was still healthy.

[gregc]

That's AWESOME! I don't really like it much, but IT'S AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[edgar_allan_poe]

Wow. Bunch of haters. Just to throw a little gasoline - I've personally never heard a player who could actually PLAY this material accurately say something so dismissive about the material OR the players.

True...but no one in the thread did that. Everyone is in agreement that the technical aspects of the piece and the player are astounding. I am in awe of anyone who can play like this because I know that it is simply out of my reach. I also cannot comprehend the vast musical/technical vocabulary one would have to have to *create* a piece like this. It truly boggles the mind.

The disagreement is whether or not the piece translates well to the guitar, especially when accompanied by a gain heavy tone.

I have several classical CDs with this particular Caprice and it is one of my favorite pieces. I also like the way that Vai did this at the end of Crossroads. I know that it isn't as precise as the Becker version, but it is more pleasing to the ear because the notes aren't as much of a blur. That is partially due to a much better recording, but it is also largely due to the fact that he slowed it down a bit and IMHO that lets the melody come through much better.

[polara]

Yeah, there was no hating on the shredheads, dismissal of Becker's talents or other weirdness. I simply don't enjoy listening to baroque music on high-gain electric guitar. Just as I hate it when orchestras do an evening of "the music of ( insert name of some rock band)" in order to fill seats. Guess I'm narrow-minded but I think some kinds of music sound better on different instruments, in different contexts. Even if Jessye Norman can sing "Satisfaction" I don't want to hear it, any more than I want to hear Chris Cornell tackle the Nessun Dorma aria from Turandot.

[eightyfour]

I'm a bluesman, always have been. Still think this stuff is SICK! Friggin love it. I practice a lot of what would probably be considered very base level shred techniques even if I don't employ them in my music. Actually watching a Dream Theater dvd right now, shred is music, and music is cool.

[chap]

A 2008 ABS news broadcast on Jason Becker

[Guest JackButler]

I totally understand that it was your opinion.. my point was that wouldn't be so quick to judge what was "music" and what was not.. declaring it not musical or musical.. I don't know if I .. I.. me.. would do that to another musician whether I liked them, they'e style or musicality.

I can not like something, but I wouldn't say thats not music.. same with judging whether or not something had "feeling" or "emotion".. how do I know what he/she was feeling at the time they played something.. I may find it the most lifeless thing I've ever heard.. while they may have been extremely moved by what they were doing.. but I still don't think it would be for "me" to pass judgement on whether not it was or was not "music".

[edgar_allan_poe]

I totally understand that it was your opinion.. my point was that wouldn't be so quick to judge what was "music" and what was not.. declaring it not musical or musical.. I don't know if I .. I.. me.. would do that to another musician whether I liked them, they'e style or musicality.

I can not like something, but I wouldn't say thats not music.. same with judging whether or not something had "feeling" or "emotion".. how do I know what he/she was feeling at the time they played something.. I may find it the most lifeless thing I've ever heard.. while they may have been extremely moved by what they were doing.. but I still don't think it would be for "me" to pass judgement on whether not it was or was not "music".

You are just jealous 'cuz I smoke you. LOL!!!!!!!

[shredmeister]

I have come to believe that guys like Jason Becker and Yngwie conceptualize music and what they hear in their head in a different manner.

What is playing in more traditional players heads in my opinion from a playing perspective are individual notes like what was mentioned above. Holding a bend, getting a note to express overtones and harmonics, etc...

Maybe doing a trill between 2 notes.

A shredder conceptualizes differently. They hear groups of notes and tonal centers and how those groups and tonal centers connect with one another or create tension against one another. They don't approach the guitar from the perspective of just playing a single note and getting maximum tone from that note. They hear entire chords, movements and leads and solos played that create a certain feel withing those chords and movements. They hear a guitar orchestra as apposed to a blues solo.

Two totally different ways to approach the instrument I guess is what I am saying.

I like it all and too much of anything gets boring. I burn out faster I guess listening so shred stuff but I get sick of blues also. Gotta have variety.

As far as shredders go Jason Becker seems to keep my interest more than most. There are other good ones - Yngwie, Vinne Moore, George Bellas. Lots of guys. But then you gotta ask yourself if you don't like shredders do you like Flamenco guitar? I love Flamenco and it is basically shredding on an acoustic. There are jazz shredders too - Al Dimeola for example.

Lots and lots of guys like to play fast. I see nothing wrong with that. To each their own.

Listen to the 6th song on the Perpetual Burn CD - about the last 3rd of the tune is Becker shredding blues. It is fascinating to hear blues played this way. I always thought that this

passage was one of the coolest on the CD.

The other thing is sometimes stuff is a blast to play but boring to listen to. Playing and listening are two different things too.

So what does it come down to - what is music? I don't know.

[harry65]

I have come to believe that guys like Jason Becker and Yngwie conceptualize music and what they hear in their head in a different manner.

What is playing in more traditional players heads in my opinion from a playing perspective are individual notes like what was mentioned above. Holding a bend, getting a note to express overtones and harmonics, etc...

Maybe doing a trill between 2 notes.

A shredder conceptualizes differently. They hear groups of notes and tonal centers and how those groups and tonal centers connect with one another or create tension against one another. They don't approach the guitar from the perspective of just playing a single note and getting maximum tone from that note. They hear entire chords, movements and leads and solos played that create a certain feel withing those chords and movements. They hear a guitar orchestra as apposed to a blues solo.

Two totally different ways to approach the instrument I guess is what I am saying.

I like it all and too much of anything gets boring. I burn out faster I guess listening so shred stuff but I get sick of blues also. Gotta have variety.

As far as shredders go Jason Becker seems to keep my interest more than most. There are other good ones - Yngwie, Vinne Moore, George Bellas. Lots of guys. But then you gotta ask yourself if you don't like shredders do you like Flamenco guitar? I love Flamenco and it is basically shredding on an acoustic. There are jazz shredders too - Al Dimeola for example.

Lots and lots of guys like to play fast. I see nothing wrong with that. To each their own.

Listen to the 6th song on the Perpetual Burn CD - about the last 3rd of the tune is Becker shredding blues. It is fascinating to hear blues played this way. I always thought that this

passage was one of the coolest on the CD.

The other thing is sometimes stuff is a blast to play but boring to listen to. Playing and listening are two different things too.

So what does it come down to - what is music? I don't know.

well said bro , it's all good................