Guest JackButler Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 A question for you players out there...as I scan various guitar/net boards looking for things for my studnets and such..I've noticed that quite a few players out there speak of legato (hammer ons and pull offs) in terms of "cheating"...like if you can't/don't pick every note you're somehow slighting yourself or someone... of course I did have one guy try and convince me that "shredding" didn't have anything to do with technique or theory or anything of real musical value, that shredding was all about, as he put it.."pure speed and lowering the sour note count"?!?! LOL!So what say you guys...is it cheating if you rely mostly on your legato/fretting hand as opposed to picking everynote?
Kurt L Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 Cheating? What a ridiculous concept. It's just another spice in the gumbo!
JohnnyB Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 Hardly! You can use hammer-ons and pull-offs to sound faster than what your picking hand can articulate, but that's not all they're about.They really function as grace notes. They're very common in certain kinds of acoustic music, especially bluegrass, and even on mandolin. On a mandolin it's unmistakable that it's a tool of expression rather than a cheat for sounding faster.Hammer-ons and pull-offs sound different than individually picked notes, and it's all about the expressive intent of the musician.
atquinn Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 I do the legato thing because: 1) Joe Satriani is my hero 2) It's easier than developing really good lefthand-righthand coordination If I was as good at picking stuff as I am at hammering/pulling-off, I wouldn't think it was cheating, but since I use it primarily as a short-cut, yes, I do think it's cheating to a large extent (doesn't really bother me none though ). -Austin
Hamer95USA Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 Hey JackButler, I think that great right hand/left hand coordination through picking or hammer on, pull offs and legato style playing are totally hip and legitimate in any kind of music. Why do other musicians impose these limitations on other musicians who use this style or technique? Check out Allan Holdsworth, Mike Stern or John Scofield. Great guitar players in the jazz/rock genre who use the legato technique beautifully and makes the guitar sound very fluid in their lead lines. Edward Van Halen copped a lot of Holdsworth in his lead lines like "Drop Dead Legs". The same thing with Joe Satriani or Steve Vai. Guitar George
cmatthes Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 I don't think of it as cheating - just another way to get to a similar end. Of course, there are times when you would need to use correct technique (I'm thinking more classical stuff), but I feel that whatever technique you use to best bring out your own muse or whatever inspires you to play more often, better, for yourself and/or others is right for you. Kevin - if I were a teacher, I'd show students both techniques, but would encourage them to decide which they prefer or which fits their needs. I would never say one was "right" or one was "wrong", because they are both valid.
BLuesBuster Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 Interesting, albeit misguided. Legato is just another ingredient that makes the guitar such a wonderful instrument. There's no "cheating" as long as the listener is touched in some way.
hudpucker Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 hammer-ons and pull-offs are cheating? If that were true then most of we 80s guys would still be in jail!
ZR Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 If hammer-ons/pull-offs are a crime then tapping would be a felony! ; )
bbobb24 Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 Most of my bass lines include hammer on's and pull offs, if that's cheating I'm guilty as all heck.
jettster Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 I used to hear that statement a lot but, it's been 10 or 15 years ago. Legato provides a completely different result (tone/feel/attack) compared to picking everything. It's funny how people who can pick everything wish they had the ability to play legato and the reverse holds true as well. They are both valuable skills that can be used to convey different aspects to the listener. I don't consider it cheating but, I do think that someone who relies entirely on either technique without developing the other is cheating themselves. I relied on some form of legato for most of the time I've been playing and have realized in the last couple of years the value of developing my picking skills. Both skills are equally important.
MCChris Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 See, this is where you get into the negative attitude some people have toward those who have put forth the time, energy and dedication to develop their technique to the utmost. Feel free to have complete command of your instrument; I and many others will never hesitate to tip our hats to someone for that. But once a player starts sneering at someone else's approach, that's when it ain't cool IMO.I'm pretty much a 100% legato player as I'm a lefty playing righty and my strong hand is on the fretboard. I'll be the first to admit my picking is my Achilles heel, but I no longer have time to woodshed. Besides, I'm quite happy with how I'm able to express myself on the guitar so I don't feel the need to master new techniques just for the sake of doing so.
tobereeno Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 distortion and compression makes hammer-ons come out at a similar volume to picked notes. The electric guitar and high gain amps have totally changed the "rules"...that people still cling to rules of technique applicable to the guitar 300 years ago is ridiculous. Let those who think it's cheating to continue thinking that. And let open-minded folk to play the electric guitar to its fullest potential. Frankly, one can't achieve the fullest potential on the electric guitar without adopting the techniques developed specifically to take advantage of the greater tonal horizons the thing offers - isn't that why we play the electric guitar in the first place?
hardheartedbill Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 you should be able to do both IMO. picking every note is really really hard and many people skip over this aspect of technique, I'm w/ Jettster, don't cheat yourself ( if possible, MCC makes a great point, if your happy and having fun making music then it's all good, but from a "master" frame of mind you should do both well )
Brooks Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 I'm quite happy with how I'm able to express myself on the guitar so I don't feel the need to master new techniques just for the sake of doing so. +1, well put. i can play the styles that i'm *really* into (neo-jazz, funk, hard rawk). so while i am a little impressed by all the many shred/bebop/fingerstyle/classical/chicken picken masters, i don't really listen to those styles so i have no desire to put the time in to master them. kinda like being mildly impressed by a powerlifter or long distance runner's achievements, but not impressed near enough to go to the gym, ha.i do practice stuff in the styles i like, and i think i'm improving over time. actually, i'm more concerned w/ improving my vocals than my guitar skills at this point.ps- anyone who thinks legato is cheating needs to listen to holdsworth.
Guest JackButler Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 I don't think of it as cheating - just another way to get to a similar end. Of course, there are times when you would need to use correct technique (I'm thinking more classical stuff), but I feel that whatever technique you use to best bring out your own muse or whatever inspires you to play more often, better, for yourself and/or others is right for you. Kevin - if I were a teacher, I'd show students both techniques, but would encourage them to decide which they prefer or which fits their needs. I would never say one was "right" or one was "wrong", because they are both valid. I agree. I do show students both techniques/styles and usually a player/student will lean towards one or the other and then I encourage them to exploit and strengthen their weakness in the other. I also agree with what MCC said.. there is and has been for a long while now that old "technique" backlash. Most of these comments come from guys who are at least only half my age (turned 37 last monday btw..lol) and who also profess themselves to be "shredders"...most of them from cookie monster bands.. and when you try to intelligently discuss with them that speed is only a tool..and that shred is about more (at least to me) than speed..its like talking to a wall. A lot of what I get back from these younger "shredders" is that its about speed for speed's sake and nothing else. I had the mind to use this post as a kind of barometer to find out where, what I consider, mature players/individuals stand on the issue.,, as currently with my more advanced, younger students..this is a hot topic of conversation. Thanks for the feedback guys..keep it coming.
MCChris Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 if possible, MCC makes a great point I know, whooda thunk I could make a good point? LOL!My philosophy? If you ain't rubbin' (hammering on and pulling off) you ain't racin'! Here's an MP3 of me "cheating" my ass off. Big file (10 MB, 7 minute jam) with legato lunacy out the wazoo:http://musecafeonline.com/mcchris/05150507.MP3
hardheartedbill Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 if possible, MCC makes a great point I know, whooda thunk I could make a good point? LOL!My philosophy? If you ain't rubbin' (hammering on and pulling off) you ain't racin'! Here's an MP3 of me "cheating" my ass off. Big file (10 MB, 7 minute jam) with legato lunacy out the wazoo:http://musecafeonline.com/mcchris/05150507.MP3 LOL, missplaced paranthesis , sorry!
edgar_allan_poe Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 Kevin...any time you would like a lesson on speed picking and legato work, I would be more than happy to give it to you. Now stop cheating yourself and learn from a true master. Seriously though... I am with MCC on this one. It is the end result that counts. If a musician feels that a legato passage will fit a certain song better than a picked passage, then that is what they should use. It is about the song...not the guitar player. It is like the different brush strokes of a master painter...Monet didn't only use one technique, why should we?
hardheartedbill Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 If a musician feels that a legato passage will fit a certain song better than a picked passage, then that is what they should use. It is about the song...not the guitar player. It is like the different brush strokes of a master painter...Monet didn't only use one technique, why should we? Poe, thats true, so thats why you need to do both, what if a musician feels that it's better picked but cant pick it?
ET_KenW Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 It's a tool. If it fits for what you want, use it.
edgar_allan_poe Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 Poe, thats true, so thats why you need to do both, what if a musician feels that it's better picked but cant pick it? Ahhh...but thats a different argument. The original post was about legato being "cheating". Obviously a guitar player should know all the techniques available to achieve the goal of writing a good song. I would say that if a guitar player feels that the part is better picked, but cannot do it, then legato would be a compromise. Not a cheat, but a compromise. I have never had this issue as my technique is flawless.
tgoss Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 Nope, not cheating at all. A legitimate technique.
JohnnyB Posted August 16, 2005 Posted August 16, 2005 ..its like talking to a wall. A lot of what I get back from these younger "shredders" is that its about speed for speed's sake and nothing else.In that case, they're not musicians, they're fretboard gymnasts.
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