refinishing a hamer

[Sugartune]

Hi Experts!

I've been eyeing an Artist Korina that a friend has, but I was thinking about changing it a bit. The natural is quite nice, but it's just too much for me on that particular guitar. I think it'd look real sharp with a cadillac green top, with the rest keeping it's natural finish.

1st question, what's the best suggested method of removing the finish?

2nd, do I have to/is it recommended to strip the whole body, paint the top and clear coat, or can I just strip/paint/clear coat the top?

[Carl.B]

If you have your heart set on doing it send it to Stike your resale hit may not be as bad.

[gorch]

Natural Korina has not been my favorite coloring too. Send it to Stike and let him perform his magic.

[Sugartune]

Sending it to someone, Stike or otherwise would be ideal, but it might also be somewhat cost prohibitive for me at the moment. Getting the guitar in the first place is a stretch.

Shipping from Canada and back plus the cost of the work. I'm unsure about duties/taxes, but I sure don't want to pay that twice. Looking at a couple places that do guitar finishing relatively close to me takes me to The Twelfth Fret in Toronto, and it'd be about 1000 bucks.

Having experience with wood work and finishing (but not guitar related), it's something I'd like to consider doing myself. If I fuck it up, it's either "character" or then look to have it done.

I will explore that potential further though.

So finish removal. Heat gun or stripper?

[G Man]

Not sure on the finish removal, but I really can't see any reason to mess with the back and sides in any way. Tape everything but the top off. I would think stripper would be the way to go, if it was thick import poly, then I would say heat gun.

[Stike]

If you want to do the top only then you can get away with only prepping the top if you mask the rest of the guitar. The transition from new paint to old would be a lot easier if the top was bound but it can still be done.

Doing just the top I would skip the heat gun and chemical stripper and just use sand paper. 3M gold paper around 320 grit and a firm, flat rubber block-sand until you hit color, I think that those korinas have a little bit of tint. You want to get the topcoat clears off but leave the factory sealer coat intact.

Shipping costs aside I'm slammed and running behind on everything so I can't take anything else in for a bit. Have you called Mike Potvin?

[Sugartune]

Thank you!

[DaveH]

You'll kill the value by doing this. Trashing a good lacquer for a thick urethane coat is not something I would be willing to do. YMMV. I say appreciate it for what it is, and get something else to satisfy your desire... There are some damn nice green-flamed Studios to be had out there.

[Sugartune]

Well, value isn't something I consider in this scenario. I wouldn't do it if I planned on selling it. I wouldn't do a thick finish either and would use a lacquer if possible.

I probably won't do it, at least not right away.

I'll find another project to play with first.

[Steve Haynie]

Take Stike's advice and only take the top down to the sealer coat. Remember that the finish is only about as thick as the B string.

Paying someone who regularly refinishes guitars would be worth it if you are not experienced in spraying and buffing finishes.

[cmatthes]

Just a slight rant/commentary...just because it's not lacquer doesn't mean it's going to be a thick finish. People get way out of joint and buy into the internet-fueled myth that "Poly = thick, bad and tone suffocating". Stike is FAR more eloquent on this topic than me, but modern poly-type and hybrid finishes can be applied just as thinly (or even thinner) than a Nitro/Lacquer job. They dry/set faster typically, can be easier to work with, and can be more durable and colorfast over time. They truly are an improvement over the old school '50s nitro stuff in many ways, but most of have been conditioned by sales hype and conjecture that if it ain't nitro, it's shit. The gooped on Fender poly finishes were the standard bugaboo for vintage guitar dealers hawking their wares, but I still believe that those thicker poly finishes were among the least of Fender's worries during that era. The worshipped, tone laden, Pre-CBS Fenders were literally dipped in Fullerplast, a plasticized sealer, to streamline the finishing process. They didn't use nitro topcoats because of any tonal qualities back then - they used what was available.

If you want to see a current example of a crappy, gooped on, awful finish, pick up an Agile or some other Indonesian made beginner instrument. The finish is thicker because it's a cost-saving method. Thicker coats, less finish sanding/handwork, but still looks glossy from 5 feet away. Most high end builders these days aren't using nitro, because they don't want to have to redo the finishes again and again (unless they're pushing relic stuff).

Don't believe the hype!

[Sugartune]

^^^^Exactly^^^^.

[Biz Prof]

Just a slight rant/commentary...just because it's not lacquer doesn't mean it's going to be a thick finish. People get way out of joint and buy into the internet-fueled myth that "Poly = thick, bad and tone suffocating". Stike is FAR more eloquent on this topic than me, but modern poly-type and hybrid finishes can be applied just as thinly (or even thinner) than a Nitro/Lacquer job. They dry/set faster typically, can be easier to work with, and can be more durable and colorfast over time. They truly are an improvement over the old school '50s nitro stuff in many ways, but most of have been conditioned by sales hype and conjecture that if it ain't nitro, it's shit. The gooped on Fender poly finishes were the standard bugaboo for vintage guitar dealers hawking their wares, but I still believe that those thicker poly finishes were among the least of Fender's worries during that era. The worshipped, tone laden, Pre-CBS Fenders were literally dipped in Fullerplast, a plasticized sealer, to streamline the finishing process. They didn't use nitro topcoats because of any tonal qualities back then - they used what was available.

If you want to see a current example of a crappy, gooped on, awful finish, pick up an Agile or some other Indonesian made beginner instrument. The finish is thicker because it's a cost-saving method. Thicker coats, less finish sanding/handwork, but still looks glossy from 5 feet away. Most high end builders these days aren't using nitro, because they don't want to have to redo the finishes again and again (unless they're pushing relic stuff).

Don't believe the hype!

Great points and an eloquent rant. It also begs the question: When was the last time car manufacturers used nitrocellulose lacquer? We all know that this was the only reason that Leo/George used the stuff; it was readily available in Fullerton.

[Studio Custom]

Fender did everything as cheap and fast as possible, but when they did it, we romanticize, when the Chinese do it, we refer to it as junk. Another case of perception becoming reality.

[Stike]

You'll kill the value by doing this. Trashing a good lacquer for a thick urethane coat is not something I would be willing to do. YMMV. I say appreciate it for what it is, and get something else to satisfy your desire... There are some damn nice green-flamed Studios to be had out there.

Unless the Korina Artists were made before 1992 (and I don't think they were) it's not lacquer.

Just speculation on my part but knowing what we know about Leo if the acrylic urethanes and UV curable products used today were available in the 50's I'm pretty sure that's what Fender would have been using.

[DaveH]

You'll kill the value by doing this. Trashing a good lacquer for a thick urethane coat is not something I would be willing to do. YMMV. I say appreciate it for what it is, and get something else to satisfy your desire... There are some damn nice green-flamed Studios to be had out there.

Unless the Korina Artists were made before 1992 (and I don't think they were) it's not lacquer.

Just speculation on my part but knowing what we know about Leo if the acrylic urethanes and UV curable products used today were available in the 50's I'm pretty sure that's what Fender would have been using.

I honestly did not intend to take stabs at you, or your work Stike. What I've seen you do looks VERY good. I will say I'd had a few beers when I posted that, or I probably wouldn't have even posted at all.

To everyone else, rant all you want. It's not going to change my opinion on thick finishes, whether lacquer or urethane. No way would I strip a stock Hamer finish and re-shoot it with urethane, but that's just me, and YMMV.

Hamers are among the liveliest guitars I've played, I think most of you will agree with that. How much, or whether or not the finish has anything to do with that I can't honestly say. I think that it does, but I don't think it's the only variable. However Jol, Kim, and/or whoever writing the specs and building the guitars felt that the finishing made a difference. With Hamer's consistency, who am I to argue?

Copy/paste from the Hamer site:

http://www.hamerguitars.com/?fa=lovestory

"Finally, even though our finishes are of depth and clarity rarely found in wood finishing, they are not merely cosmetic, but are an integral part of the guitar's sonic signature. Using a specially formulated guitar lacquer, we build the finish up over a period of more than a week carefully sanding in between coats to keep the finish thin and flat. Our colors are custom mixed in our paint shop, and applied with an airbrush in layers. This layering technique is what makes the Hamer sunbursts the most envied finishes in the industry. By keeping the finish thin, we preserve the resonance of the guitar rather than muting it with pounds of coating. This keeps our guitars alive, with an acoustic "airiness" that is repeatable rather than rare. In all, we spend over three weeks on the finish of each Hamer."

There are Artists shown in those finishing stage pics (follow the links) that to me indicate they are lacquer, since they are thrown in with the caption that says they are lacquer. Or did they just throw those pics in 10 years after the fact, without editing their description in order to make people think they were still using lacquer? Serious question, not being smart ass.

At cmathes: One of the thickest urethane coats I've ever seen is on a USA Dean korina Cadillac. It was actually their 1996 NAMM showpiece. While the finish didn't kill it, I've always wondered what it could be like if Jol's gang had applied their finish.

Again, no ruffling originally intended.

[cmatthes]

DaveH - Hamer stopped using nitro lacquer decades ago. Really! I've spoken with Jol and various others in New Hartford about the subject.

Stike has a great summary of the differences:

http://www.rowycokustoms.com/RK_nitropoly.html

[Stike]

Since 92 Hamer used McFaddens CAB urethane clear for sealer and top coat, that's what Jol said at the last open house anyway. Technically he didn't refer to it as CAB urethane, I think he was calling it acetate base lacquer? It's been awhile. On that open house I chatted up Gary who did all the finishing and he told me the part number. When McFadden was still in business it was listed on their website as "Urethane Guitar Lacquer" but at the end of the day it's was still a catalyzed urethane product. Urethanes a get a bad rap since people just refer to it as "poly" which gets associated with the thick shit on Asian imports. It's expensive too so spraying as little as possible is prefered! )

[DaveH]

Well then, that sheds some light on it. Apologies. I wish they had been more concise in their description, 'cause "urethane lacquer" confuses me. Anyway... As I said earlier, whether it's urethane, or lacquer, or urethane lacquer... If it's thick I don't think it's a good thing.

Maybe it's poly that Dean used on my Caddy, it's unbelievably thick. It has several finish cracks, and it's night/day difference from what you see on Hamers or old Gibsons.

[Sugartune]

Just going to keep it natural. I'll get my Cadillac green on a build. Future me is going to be excited.

[Hamer Dave]

Could you not simply lightly 'prep' the surface, and spray a compatible color over, that would adhere to the existing finish, without stripping it?

Or, isn't there a 'skins' product that allows you to attach a veneer to alter the look? Thought I've seen this product.

[Biz Prof]

Could you not simply lightly 'prep' the surface, and spray a compatible color over, that would adhere to the existing finish, without stripping it?

Or, isn't there a 'skins' product that allows you to attach a veneer to alter the look? Thought I've seen this product.

It's possible, but Stike has far more experience than I do. I refinished an old Charvel Fusion using Rustoleum <Egad!> ColorShift green/purple over a Rustoleum black primer. I moved the volume knob location and prepped the surface by scuffing the original black urethane topcoat--never once hitting color. The top coats (about 7 thin coats followed by two heavy coats) are all Minwax lacquer in the black rattle can. Three weeks of gassing out, followed by a few hours of wet sanding and hand buffing produced this:

[Hamer Dave]

Could you not simply lightly 'prep' the surface, and spray a compatible color over, that would adhere to the existing finish, without stripping it?

Or, isn't there a 'skins' product that allows you to attach a veneer to alter the look? Thought I've seen this product.

It's possible, but Stike has far more experience than I do. I refinished an old Charvel Fusion using Rustoleum <Egad!> ColorShift green/purple over a Rustoleum black primer. I moved the volume knob location and prepped the surface by scuffing the original black urethane topcoat--never once hitting color. The top coats (about 7 thin coats followed by two heavy coats) are all Minwax lacquer in the black rattle can. Three weeks of gassing out, followed by a few hours of wet sanding and hand buffing produced this:

That looks great Biz'! I imagine there's some clear over that color, that you buffed?

[Biz Prof]

Cleared over with Minwax spray lacquer.

[HSB0531]

If you have your heart set on doing it send it to Stike your resale hit may not be as bad.

What Carl.B said.