Marshall Studio Vintage - "Baby Plexi" SV20

[LucSulla]

So I bought one of these and gigged it the same day.  Never played a plexi in my life really, and I thought "screw it" and just jumped right in. 

Man, that shit was wild, lol.  By the end of the gig, I broke a string for the first time in forever and learned why people love those amps and why master volume amps became a thing.  I told one the guys I was playing with that I felt like I just ran a marathon on acid. 

I was ready for the dB and bough an attenuator - an attenuator that is going back (more on that later).  Physics being physics, a 100 watt plexi tops out at around 125 db @ 1 meter.  That's not dimed, but that's as loud as it gets before it just starts distorting and compressing more. Cut the watts in half and you get a 3 db reduction, so from a 1959 to a 1987, that's about 122 db.   A 25 watt amp would be about 119, and a 20 watt around 117ish.   Well, according to the dB meter on my watch, this little bastard hits the volume ceiling between 114 and 116 depending on the guitar.

Go physics.  Of course, you need about 10 db of sound pressure reduction for it to actually sound half as loud, so at the end of the day, a SV20 at operational settings to get that plexi crunch is about half as loud as a 1959.   Half as loud as a Howitzer is indeed quieter, but also still throwing-an-anvil-into-an-empty-dumpster loud. 

So I spend an hour or so playing it at the house through various cabs.  Holy shit, it's bright!  This worries me, but I take it anyway.  It has a loop, and I feel I'm ready for everything.  I can roll back for useable cleans, push it a little more with an OD for more distortion, and just hope for the best about the brightness.  I sound check, and, boom!  The brightness makes sense.  Damn thing sounds killer through the mix.  

Only real problem is that, attenuated at the first setting on my attenuator, it's just slightly too quiet.  And this is the first problem I had.  The SPL Reducer works great on the Budda.  Each notch of attenuation registers pretty much dead on to the what it is supposed to be.  However, with the Marshall, that first notch shaves off about 10 db rather than 3 db, which is just a little too much, though it really does do a great job of maintaining the sound. This isn't a total drag - mics and PA do exist - but I'd have prefered being able to just milk a few more db out of the speakers. 

The bigger problem happens when I go to play a solo, hit the button on my Cusack More Loud pedal in the loop (basically a super clean boost for solos), and *splat.*  No volume boost, just mush.   I quickly put together what I should have thought about earlier - Jason, you're already clipping the damn power tubes!  There's nowhere else to go!

OK, so now what?  I didn't but\y the thing to be a clean pedal platform, but this is new territory.  I can use pedals to put a little hair back in when I roll the volume off, but for leads, I seriously need less attenuation.  The amp actually isn't really loud enough for that with "3db"  of cut for leads, but it's waaaay too loud for anything else without it. 

You see, I'm also at a venue where we have to be 70 db at the street, so I discovered upon arriving.  Giant new stage with flown stacks of PA, but 70db at the street.  Now, why you are having rock bands with that issue, I don't know.  And truthfully, the stage they built does a much better job of keeping the sound down at the sidewalk while still being loud enough for a band to almost play like normal.  But I also know the kid running sound is going to shit his pants if I take a song to dial this thing back in while we're chugging along.  

So, I just figure I'll do what I've always heard everyone else did.  I just lay into the strings with the pick, and after one solo, 100% understand a helluvalot more about why Angus Young sounds like Angus Young.  Also broke a string on stage for the first time in years, and not one of the skinny ones.  

Today, I screwed around with an EQ pedal set up as a treble boost today, and I also 100% get those things now.  But even cooler, I found an attenuator with a footswitchable +3 or +6 db solo boost, which I think is a little more workable than throwing a treble boost on the board for every now and then when I want to gig with this amp.  The SPL would be fantastic on an amp with a MV;  I just need something a little different.

Overall, I'm glad I bought it and am really intrigued by learning how to work with it better.  The Splawn SS is an imminently more giggable amp.  I played a gig yesterday where I could really open that sucker up through an additional 1X12 extension cab (I swapped some speakers around so I can run two at 8 ohms), and probably sold a couple of amps for Scott.  That's just a wickedly good amp, but there's something about trying to wrestle with a plexi that is just fascinating, particularly because I never have.  The closest I've ever come is maybe five or ten minutes here and there with a JTM45 barely breaking up before the salesman at the music store said, "That's enough." It's a crash course in why late 60s through late 70s rock sounds the way it does, why amps evolved like the did, and why things like a Rangemaster came to be.  

Which most all of you here already know having cut your teeth at the tail end of when people were still gigging these things.  But hell, I thought it might bring back some memories.  Plus, y'all may be mostly JCM 800-age around here, but I'm only a model newer myself - and shittier model at that. 

[tbonesullivan]

Playing a plexi is definitely a quasi-religious experience. When you've got the power section fully saturated from the phase inverter to the output transformer, it's just a magical feeling. One that you can hear for half a mile away.

Did you have the channels jumpered together?

[Disturber]

5 hours ago, LucSulla said:

The bigger problem happens when I go to play a solo, hit the button on my Cusack More Loud pedal in the loop (basically a super clean boost for solos), and *splat.*  No volume boost, just mush.   I quickly put together what I should have thought about earlier - Jason, you're already clipping the damn power tubes!  There's nowhere else to go!
 

You got to work with the volume knob on your guitar. DIme that damn Marshall. Keep your vol knob on the guitar around 7'ish. You should get a a fairly good rock tone. Hit an overdrive or boost and you are in hard rock land. For solos turn the volume on your guitar to 10. Might not need a a pedal now. You just got tha extra boost from the guitar.

[DaveH]

It is definitely the realm to live in, nothing else like it! I like to find the sweet spot of a particular amp and leave the volume there (it may be 3:00 or something) and then use the guitar volume to control it. Sadly, this isn't very doable at the house.

[Biz Prof]

 

12 hours ago, LucSulla said:

OK, so now what?  I didn't but\y the thing to be a clean pedal platform...

I suggest you rethink this part of your experiment. I both recorded and gigged with a 1987 for a few years in the early 90s. In the studio, I ran it into the high input on the "Volume 1" channel with the volume pot on 6 or 7 for a thick, chewy crunch. It always felt slightly out of control and like taming a wild beast....but it was glorious. For cleaner tones, I jumpered the channels and ran both volumes on 2 or 3. Total Malcolm Young clangy bliss with just a bit of hair on the edges.

Gigs were a bit different, primarily because venue stages varied in size and I needed a "mostly clean" tone to complement my dirty tones. I quickly learned to go with my jumpered Malcolm Young setting as a baseline and push it with Boss SD-1 for crunch and leads, using my guitar's volume pots to vary the gain. That was a simple set up, but it sounded and worked perfectly for classic rock. You really can't get a Fender style amp to sound like that, and I suspect you'll like it much better than most other pedal platforms you've ever tried.

[Dutchman]

5 hours ago, Disturber said:

You got to work with the volume knob on your guitar. DIme that damn Marshall. Keep your vol knob on the guitar around 7'ish. You should get a a fairly good rock tone. Hit an overdrive or boost and you are in hard rock land. For solos turn the volume on your guitar to 10. Might not need a a pedal now. You just got tha extra boost from the guitar.

This is how it's done!!! My pedal board was a rackmount roland digital delay for years. The rest I got from the guitar and amp. Wedge speaker turned to the back of the stage. Very simple, and sounded great!

[LucSulla]

10 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

Did you have the channels jumpered together?

I did. 

 

4 hours ago, Biz Prof said:

Gigs were a bit different, primarily because venue stages varied in size and I needed a "mostly clean" tone to complement my dirty tones. I quickly learned to go with my jumpered Malcolm Young setting as a baseline and push it with Boss SD-1 for crunch and leads, using my guitar's volume pots to vary the gain. That was a simple set up, but it sounded and worked perfectly for classic rock. You really can't get a Fender style amp to sound like that, and I suspect you'll like it much better than most other pedal platforms you've ever tried.

I'm glad I never bought a 1987 despite the temptation.  I'll give that a shot too.  I plan on holding onto it for at least a year and forcing myself to use it for more than plinking at the house.  I usually have a gig or two a month where it's not essential that my rig deliver complete tonal bliss.  

 

6 hours ago, Disturber said:

You got to work with the volume knob on your guitar. DIme that damn Marshall. Keep your vol knob on the guitar around 7'ish. You should get a a fairly good rock tone. Hit an overdrive or boost and you are in hard rock land. For solos turn the volume on your guitar to 10. Might not need a a pedal now. You just got tha extra boost from the guitar.

Was trying to do this, but the amp wasn't dimed.  I plan on screwing with that a bit more.  I also have what is basically a tweaked Klon clone that does the treble boost thing nicely that wasn't on my board that night.  I bought that thing more just because I like Brent Hinds and was supporting his pedal startup, but turns out that it's a pretty great pedal.

[Biz Prof]

12 hours ago, LucSulla said:

So, I just figure I'll do what I've always heard everyone else did.  I just lay into the strings with the pick, and after one solo, 100% understand a helluvalot more about why Angus Young sounds like Angus Young.  Also broke a string on stage for the first time in years, and not one of the skinny ones.  

You're actually in good company having lost a wound string whilst unleashing the fury of a non-MV Marshall there, Jason.  To wit, Mal suffers the same fate in this video for "Flick of the Switch" (IMHO, a criminally underrated AC/DC tune). 

 

[tbonesullivan]

I did look at the "Studio" amps before, and I do wonder what exactly is going on with the power section. It's running two EL34s at 20 watts total, so I would guess they are running them at a reduced voltage? From what I can read, they are all cathode biased, but I'm not sure how that would work in terms of keeping them going at a good idle current.

[LucSulla]

1 hour ago, tbonesullivan said:

I did look at the "Studio" amps before, and I do wonder what exactly is going on with the power section. It's running two EL34s at 20 watts total, so I would guess they are running them at a reduced voltage? From what I can read, they are all cathode biased, but I'm not sure how that would work in terms of keeping them going at a good idle current.

Maybe this might answer some of it.  
 

 

[Jakeboy]

Jason, try an actual Rangemaster clone. The only pedal that cleans up better than a ge Rangemaster  is a ge Fuzz Face.

Running from the guitar vol knob will give you a bigger volume boost for leads using the Rangemaster. Just made for Marshall and Vox NMVs. I love one with my 18 watter…and Vac…and Top Hat…

[LucSulla]

[LucSulla]

It is indeed more functional as @Biz Prof suggested. 

However, it sounds over all much better as @Disturber suggested.  There's a lot of harshness in the pick attack turned down to 2.  

And yeah, 2 is as loud as you can turn it up and still have any head room for anything.  Once again, checked using a db meter.  If I run it at 2 and back off the guitar volume a bit, adding hair back with an OD, I get around 3 or 4 db of when I roll the volume back up.  But  it really clangs, and not in a pleasant way, when you dig the pick in.  I'm guessing because the bright cap (and this basically a 1959 circuit until you get to the power tubes) is doing it's thing.  It may actually sound fine in a mix, but it's rough in a bedroom.  

Turned all the way up and it sound pretty great.  You can back way off the volume and get really nice cleans (on a P90 anyway), but there is a lot of noise vs at 2.  No surprise there really; it's wide open.  

Here's the really fun part.  It averages 112 db dimed, with peaks up to 114.  Turning it to 5 watts knocks it down to 107 db dimed, lol.  So at 5 watts, this thing is at the upper limit that I can get away with.  

Not a bedroom amp.

Makes me want to screw around with a good 1987 now, I guess because guitarists a fools. 

[LucSulla]

12 hours ago, Biz Prof said:

You're actually in good company having lost a wound string whilst unleashing the fury of a non-MV Marshall there, Jason.  To wit, Mal suffers the same fate in this video for "Flick of the Switch" (IMHO, a criminally underrated AC/DC tune). 

 

I never know what's weirder - AC/DC without Phil or Cliff without a headstock. 

[RobB]

12 hours ago, LucSulla said:

I never know what's weirder - AC/DC without Phil and Bon, or Cliff without a headstock. 

FIFY. 

[LucSulla]

1 hour ago, RobB said:

FIFY. 

That’s always weirder than both. 

[LucSulla]

This thing is awesome:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Ironman2--tone-king-ironman-ii-100-watt-reactive-power-attenuator

Having a foot-switchable 3-6 db to throw back in the signal complete changes everything about using this amp.  

Also broke my 4th D string in the last week. 

[tbonesullivan]

1 hour ago, LucSulla said:

This thing is awesome:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Ironman2--tone-king-ironman-ii-100-watt-reactive-power-attenuator

Having a foot-switchable 3-6 db to throw back in the signal complete changes everything about using this amp.  

Also broke my 4th D string in the last week. 

Oh wow! That IS really cool. and you also have a switch to set the regular attenuation to LO or HI, so you can control how much boost you get. Now that is definitely an attenuator designed for live use, not just a studio one like everyone else uses.

[LucSulla]

9 minutes ago, tbonesullivan said:

Oh wow! That IS really cool. and you also have a switch to set the regular attenuation to LO or HI, so you can control how much boost you get. Now that is definitely an attenuator designed for live use, not just a studio one like everyone else uses.

Exactly!  I know how to mic cabs and live alone, so letting shit rip at the house and getting it recorded isn't an issue.  This thing was the same price as the Fryette Power Station, but I felt I'd rather have a solo boost than being able to reamp and all that.  It works perfectly!  For any non-MV amp that you've milked the headroom out of, it works great for kicking the solo up over the mix.  I look forward to trying out the cab sim D.I. in the back next week as well. 

It's also pretty rad that it has an impedance selector for both inputs and outputs.  

[LucSulla]

Continuing to mess with this thing  -

I recently came into possession on 20-year-old Marshall 1960ax from when they still had British Greenbacks from a guy in Jackson who was trying to get liquid quickly. I also have another 1960a with British V30s in it.  No idea of the UK speakers are better than the Chinese speakers, but they are at least more broken in than newer speakers.  

My favorite tone out of this thing is Running the Channel volumes about 7 to 8,  Bass on 4, Mid at Noon, and Treble and Presence up around 8 (depending on the guitar - less if they're brighter) through those two cabs.  Straight in, it's Electric era Cult.  With a boost in front, it's Sonic Temple era.

I mean, for me, that's all I could have asked for out of this angry little bastard. 

Makes me want to get a JTM45, JCM 800, and a 1987 because, after all these years, I just still like Marshalls.  Also makes me wish I had hung on to the Small Box instead of going fanboy for the latest and greatest.  

Some day, I'll get a decent webcam to go with my recording interface and actually do some demos of stuff.  

 

[LucSulla]

Apparently, the sound I've been chasing had nothing to do with boutique amps or pedals.  It's not like I wasn't told... I just didn't listen.

And yes, I have never played an SD-1 through a four holer or anything else until tonight.  I could seriously gig with just this head and pedal.

 

[HamerHokie]

For solo volume boost I have been using a transparent overdrive in the effects loop.  The OD is set with gain at zero and volume down.  So what I get is a volume CUT which is my default rhythm setting.  Then I turn it off for my leads. Makes life a lot easier if you like your default amp sound. 

[LucSulla]

6 hours ago, HamerHokie said:

For solo volume boost I have been using a transparent overdrive in the effects loop.  The OD is set with gain at zero and volume down.  So what I get is a volume CUT which is my default rhythm setting.  Then I turn it off for my leads. Makes life a lot easier if you like your default amp sound. 

I have a Cusack More Louder that I used in the loop of my other amps for a volume boost, but this thing has no headroom left past 2 on either volume.  You can add dirt, but there is nowhere left to go with sheer volume.  I'm using a Mastodrive set up as treble boost to add cut, which seems to get the job done when I'm not in a three piece.  My attenuator is foot-switchable as well, you know, if the sound guy just really, really isn't paying attention. 

[bubs_42]

@LucSulla, get yourself a Suhr (original) Koko Boost. Boost on one side, Adjustable Mid Frequency boost on the other. You can use one side a "Lift" and the other side to cut through anything for leads. I wish I had one of these when I was gigging. 

[HamerHokie]

1 hour ago, LucSulla said:

I have a Cusack More Louder that I used in the loop of my other amps for a volume boost, but this thing has no headroom left past 2 on either volume.  You can add dirt, but there is nowhere left to go with sheer volume.  I'm using a Mastodrive set up as treble boost to add cut, which seems to get the job done when I'm not in a three piece.  My attenuator is foot-switchable as well, you know, if the sound guy just really, really isn't paying attention. 

I am using an MXR Timmy.  I don't know if it's the best option but I had it and it seems to work well.  My signal goes EH Soul Food -> Victory V4 The Copper -> Timmy -> Keeley Caverns (Delay and Reverb) -> Corona Chorus, then into a Mooer 20 watt EL84 power amp.  The 'effects loop' here is between the V4 and the power amp.