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RS Guitarworks Hamer Kit - Why a 250K Tone Pot?


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#16 Armitage

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 08:27 AM

Sorry, I take false claims and consumer protection very seriously. And so should we all. We've become a nation of suckers to salesman. Ever been asking any questions in a Best Buy? [shudder] I've worked in the electrical field for well over 30 years and when businesses foul up this basic stuff making claims, it kills me.

A 250k pot simply does not bleed less highs to ground in a typical guitar circuit, then a 500k pot turned to it's measured 250k spot. It's the same.

If you WANT it at the 250k point, sure do as you like.

And remember I'm saying measured. Pots can have a 20% variation. You can buy a 500k pot that's somewhere between 400k and 600k! That can make an obvious difference in tone in a guitar circuit to most people. I don't think there are too many guitarists would couldn't tell that a guitar with a 400k volume pot and 600k tone pot sounds different then one with a 600k volume pot and 400k tone pot. And higher, dead on, and lower can sound better in different applications and per different users taste, as "better" is an opinion, but it also is different.

Edited by Armitage, 04 December 2010 - 09:20 AM.

I'm afraid that when I walk through those Asylum gates... It'll be just like coming home.

#17 kurtsstuff

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 08:44 AM

Tone pots are for pussy's... :angry:

#18 dalep

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 09:43 AM

I think the reaction is a bit extreme myself - oye. The RS kit I used was great. I have no issues. Order a 500K pot if you want one. I would bet they would even sub it if you asked. This is clearly advertised, and there is no consumer protection issue I see. Over reaction to me.

#19 Armitage

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 10:19 AM

There's no reason an RS kit shouldn't be great, or have any issues.

The fact is, a 250k pot simply does not bleed less highs to ground in a typical guitar circuit, then a 500k pot turned to it's measured 250k spot. It's the same... and claiming otherwise to get people to purchase a product is misleading, and just plain wrong.

Extreme? Yeah. I got a bit wound up... but after years of seeing the same few dealers making claims to sell stuff, and yet messing up the basic electronics, I get fed up fast.

I can say Arnold is a great body builder, or a great actor or even a great Statesman... and even believe it... but when I tell you he can lift more then any other man and I'll sell you how to do it... that's simply not right.
I'm afraid that when I walk through those Asylum gates... It'll be just like coming home.

#20 dalep

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:56 PM

There's no reason an RS kit shouldn't be great, or have any issues.

The fact is, a 250k pot simply does not bleed less highs to ground in a typical guitar circuit, then a 500k pot turned to it's measured 250k spot. It's the same... and claiming otherwise to get people to purchase a product is misleading, and just plain wrong.

Extreme? Yeah. I got a bit wound up... but after years of seeing the same few dealers making claims to sell stuff, and yet messing up the basic electronics, I get fed up fast.

I can say Arnold is a great body builder, or a great actor or even a great Statesman... and even believe it... but when I tell you he can lift more then any other man and I'll sell you how to do it... that's simply not right.


We all have our opinions that are more feel and measurably real. Stainless frets, ash-alder body/fretboards, you name it. Chips in pedals. I will not even start on the personal beliefs related to amps that we can't measure ... guitar cables and silver wire. Some decaf and all will be well. You do not perceive things the way other do - in fact the differences in in our biological make up, and neurology, ensure that is the case. You and I do not see colors the same either though the actual reflected light is exactly the same. We human receivers is just to imprecise to get to carried away with much of this. And, us guitar buyers are used to "mojo" so I do not see anything worth the stress here.

#21 MarkF786

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 06:10 PM

I tend to find a tone pot doesn't make much of a difference in the first half of travel, so maybe having a 250k makes some sense.

BTW, I did also buy a 500K pot in case I didn't like the way the 250k work.

On another note, the guitar the kit is going into is a Parker Fly!!! It normally has 1 volume, 1 tone, a 3-way mag pickup selector, a 3-way mag/piezo pickup selector, and a piezo volume. I never use the piezos and I hate having to keep a battery in the guitar for it to work so I'm changing it to: 2 volumes, 1 tone, a 3-way selector, and a 3-way coil tap (inside or outside coils, mainly for when in the middle position). I'm really looking forward to see how it sounds.

Mark
D'Pergo AVC, Hamer Talladega Pro, Koll Superior, Hamer Newport, Parker Fly Artist, Hamer Monaco Elite, Fender American Strat, Allen Sweet Spot, Fender Cyber Twin, etc.

#22 bubs_42

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 06:29 PM

I "shutter" at replying to some of these threads. But I have to say that I've used the RS Hamer Kit on a couple guitars. Once on a 79 Sunburst with a Duncan Custom and a PG set up and it worked great at taking that edge off. The second was in my old Stuido with a set of Vodoo's. I always seem to back that Tone Pot off a notch so this kit was made for me. It says what it does and it does it well. Now it was structured around the JB/59 which the JB with a 250K pot is a common mod.

While we don't live in a virtual world we do "Post" in one.

#23 MarkF786

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 08:37 PM

I "shutter" at replying to some of these threads. But I have to say that I've used the RS Hamer Kit on a couple guitars. Once on a 79 Sunburst with a Duncan Custom and a PG set up and it worked great at taking that edge off. The second was in my old Stuido with a set of Vodoo's. I always seem to back that Tone Pot off a notch so this kit was made for me. It says what it does and it does it well. Now it was structured around the JB/59 which the JB with a 250K pot is a common mod.

While we don't live in a virtual world we do "Post" in one.


Interesting. I've found all of my Hamers bright but my normal solution was to bring the volume down around 8 which took the edge off. A friend who bought a Newport Pro complained of the same problem, but my volume trick cured it.
D'Pergo AVC, Hamer Talladega Pro, Koll Superior, Hamer Newport, Parker Fly Artist, Hamer Monaco Elite, Fender American Strat, Allen Sweet Spot, Fender Cyber Twin, etc.

#24 gorch

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 03:32 AM

More or less useless discussion except for RoyB's response.

My .02

Yeah!


#25 Armitage

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 05:03 AM

Now it was structured around the JB/59 which the JB with a 250K pot is a common mod.


The 250k mod, is the volume pot, not the tone pot.

And if you're happy with a 250k tone pot, that's fine, it has nothing to do with a "The 250k on 10 is not reducing treble," as it is identical to a 500k pot turned to it's 250k measured point, which you could turn up if you need to.



Btw, here's my regular post that might help you if you want to experiment, hope it helps;

Different pot values and how they affect you!

Posted Image

Humbucker graph shown. (Supplied by Duncan)

Humbuckers traditionally come with 500k volume and tone pots, wth .022 caps. Single coils traditionally use 250k pots. Remember, pickups were voiced/made to run at these values, changing the value changes their intended tone (good or bad is an opinion), as well as their output.
The top curve indicates virtually no load, the second curve down indicates a 1meg pot, the third down is a 500k pot, the fourth is a 250k pot and the bottom curve represents a 100k pot. As you can see, higher pots give you more output and raise the resonant peaks output. The resonant peak doesn't shift in frequency, but it does shift in amplitude. The resonant peak frequency of most HBs is around 5k to 7k.
With tone controls (they react differently in the circuit), a 250k pot is the same as turning your 500k tone pot down to it's resistive mid point (5 on a linear taper pot). Even on 10, a tone pot bleeds high end to ground, but pickups were designed in this circuit in mind and some people think they sound cold and glassy without a tone pot in the curcuit. A lot of people in the 80's used guitars without a tone pot, but they also used some rack gear like a Yamaha SPX-90 that killed off anything over 8k, (the SPX-90II went to 12k) so it helped a bit to make up for the loss.


If you want to see what it's like to use different value pots, without pulling breakable knobs and changing out your pots, here's a temporary way to see what it's like.

Posted Image

This is how you can hear what going from a 250k to 500k (or even 500k to 1 Meg) volume pot sounds like. Just disconnect the pickups output wire to the pot and put a 250k (or close, 240k or 270k), (or to try 1 Meg 500k or close), resistor in series. It'll sound the same, but you CAN'T turn the volume all the way off, remember this is just a test function. If you like it, go buy the pot.
You can also try doing it to your tone pot as shown. In many guitars with 250k tone pots, I've just left the resistor in permanently; you just can't turn it down as much.



Posted Image

This is how you can hear what going from a 500k volume and tone pot down to a 250k pot sounds like. Just put a 500k (or close e.g. 510k or 470k) resistor in parallel with the pots outer lugs. You can even leave it this way, the only difference will be the volume and tone pots taper (i.e. 10 will be 10, 0 will be 0, but it'll be half as loud at a different place on the knob).

P.S. if your "or close" value is slightly higher then the pot, the value will be slightly higher on 10 then the actual double, (or halved value) in these circuits. If lower, it'll be slightly lower.

Edited by Armitage, 05 December 2010 - 05:14 AM.

I'm afraid that when I walk through those Asylum gates... It'll be just like coming home.

#26 Armitage

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 05:25 AM

I tend to find a tone pot doesn't make much of a difference in the first half of travel, so maybe having a 250k makes some sense.


That's because many people put in audio taper pots in their tone control circuits. Audio taper pots (also called log) are made with a special taper to match human hearing for volume... we don't hear volume linearly, but they don't work as well for tone pots if you want a smooth ride down. As many people just crack their tone pots from one extreme to the other, it doesn't matter to most.
I'm afraid that when I walk through those Asylum gates... It'll be just like coming home.

#27 DaveH

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 05:29 AM

But I have to say that I've used the RS Hamer Kit on a couple guitars. Once on a 79 Sunburst with a Duncan Custom and a PG set up and it worked great at taking that edge off.


This is what I said a 250K pot would do when I posted, and I think it is one of the points that Armitage is trying to get across: At the full setting (10, AKA 500K or 250K ohms between signal and ground), a 500K pot will bleed off fewer of the higher frequencies to ground than a 250K will; hence the 250K will be taking the 'edge' off. The 'feel' of the control will likely change some as well. I guess all this is where subjectiveness comes in, because for me this is NOT a good thing...YMMV. Look at it like a high performance car or bike: a throttle is adjustable. If it's too fast for you, back off off a bit; but it's nice to have it if you want it.

Edited by DaveH, 05 December 2010 - 05:31 AM.

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#28 Diocletian

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 05:37 AM

At the full setting (10, AKA 500K or 250K ohms between signal and ground), a 500K pot will bleed off fewer of the higher frequencies to ground than a 250K will; hence the 250K will be taking the 'edge' off. The 'feel' of the control will likely change some as well. I guess all this is where subjectiveness comes in, because for me this is NOT a good thing...YMMV. Look at it like a high performance car or bike: a throttle is adjustable. If it's too fast for you, back off off a bit; but it's nice to have it if you want it.



I'm with you. The JB sounds awesome to me, it's about the best pickup around for playing solos and the reason is that upper mid spike!

#29 Jeroen

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 05:39 AM

I have my tone knob on all 3 Hamer guitars I got between 4 and 5. This works somehow the bst for me, and got the best tone for what I do.

Jeroen


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#30 Armitage

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 06:19 AM

Well I'm not telling people what they should use, that's personal preference, I'm talking about the information provided.
I'm afraid that when I walk through those Asylum gates... It'll be just like coming home.