What's yer next favorite brand?

[Wizard333]

What do you chalk all that up to with the American production makers? Have the original woodworkers retired and being replaced with unskilled labor, etc.? Has to be a reason for the quality drops all across the board. WWII woodworkers (there were a lot of highly skilled wood craftsmen from the war industry) retired in the mid-80s and earlier for the most part.

That is certainly a part of it yes. The guys who were doing this stuff at the big American companies are gone now. When Leo Fender started G&L, he had a lot of the same folks who were with him in the '50s at Fender Electric Instruments. Most, if not all, are gone now. Same goes for FMIC and Gibson.

Not only have those guys retired, but the new generation just doesnt seem to hold the same standards for workmanship or quality. Its not all their fault either, a lot of it has to do with management and low pay. In years gone by, a skilled woodworker was a very respected and fairly well paid position. People with exceptional skills, like form makers, could make a good living and worked at a job with some prestige involved. Nowadays, most of the people making these guitars are getting paid doodly squat, and many are minimally trained or experienced. Further, if it takes say 2-5 hours to do a proper fretboard planing and fret install/level, and some management puke is telling you that you have 30-60 minutes to do it, the finished product is not going to reflect your actual skill level.

There is a huge amount of hype surrounding Plek machines nowadays, but a good human can match a Plek for leveling (I know guys that can do it) and Pleks dont install frets, they just level them, and the vast majority and most serious problems I see nowadays are not with bad leveling, which is fairly easy to correct, but with bad fretboard prep and bad fret installation, a far more serious problem typically requiring a full refret to correct. A Plek machine will not correct or make up for either of those problems. Plek machines are such a big deal because unfortunately the guys who can do that level of work are few and far between today, and they dont work for the low $ those companies are willing to pay.

Further, if you can command $50/hour + as an independent tech if you are good (even unfortunately if you are not so good) or you can get $10-$15 an hour making guitars for Gibson, which are you going to do? And who does that leave at the $15 an hour job? The smaller makers are getting big bucks for their guitars, but they are doing the job to back it up. $3k for a properly made strat is exorbitant, but well, where else are you going to get a properly made strat anymore if not from them? Certainly not from FMIC's production department, and FMIC's one-off custom shop is far more expensive than a Suhr or Anderson (not talking about relics or reissues here, which are not near the quality of a Suhr).

Consider to the inflation adjusted prices of the guitars these companies were putting out in the '50s and early 60's vs the cost now. If you roll that forward, those small custom shop prices start to look pretty reasonable. If you roll forward the cost of of a '67 Marshall Plexi when new to today's dollars, those boutique amps start looking not so expensive. Remember, unlike semi-conductors, the technology involved in making these things has not moved forward. There are ways to do it cheaper now, but they invariably involve quality cuts to. Tube amp technology, if anything, has gone backwards dollar/dollar, since there are so few companies now making those components vs in the 50s-70s.

The probable reason you can still get very high quality from some Asian companies for not a ton of cash (for example, a Japanese Ibanez RGT320, the top of their rock line, runs about $1650 street, some of the others a bit less; a top of the line Ibanez Jazz box will run $1500-$3k street, compare that with an L-5 or similar instrument from a large US company) is probably due to the different attititudes towards quality workmanship, and wages thereof, in those countries.

[tombo]

Of course some of the smaller makers do nice work, Suhr comes to mind, a few other folks mentioned Anderson.  But then we are talking about $3000 strats; things like that are in a different category altogether.  At $3k for a bolt neck guitar, it better be perfect.

Andersons and Suhrs **MOSTLY** don't go for $3,000 (fancy Atoms, Cobras and Suhr Carved Tops being the exception). New ones average about $2,200 - 2,300 (some plain jane ones can be had for a tad under $2,000) , and used ones are truly bargains. As great as they are, they take a huge hit on the used market...just like Hamer. Hang out on the Anderson or Suhr boards and you'll see a lot of them sold for about $1,500 - 1,600 (yes, some go for more than that). Many of them are in pristine condition and what's also kind of interesting is that many of the players selling them are selling them to fund another Anderson or Suhr

Ibanez???? I live in the same city as Ibanez (Hoshino) headquarters. I see their best of their best all the time. I recently tried an Andy Timmons model and it took less than a minute with it to put it back on the rack. Price - about $1,500. Andy's Ibanez' are most likely made in L.A. by Performance Guitars (rumour...not confirmed). What Andy, Satch, and Steve Vai play aren't what you get to choose from.

[licksville]

+1 for Carvin. Bought one new, sight unseen in 1994. At that time I figured since they are factory-direct, they must have decent quality control or they would get a lot of stuff sent back, as compared to other major brands that would ship anything to retailers and leave retailers holding the bag. Of course that's what I told myself in order to talk myself into buying a guitar sight unseen for the first time, but I had seen a guitar or two in music stores that were not very playable for new guitars. Anyway, I got great player that's still my number 1, although if I ever get a jazz gig, my Artist Korina HB is standing by to take over the number 1 spot.

[marcnorth]

Gibson

[gfc55]

Lakland basses are amazing instruments. I have several, and all of them have exceptional playability, fit, and finish. It's also cool that they're a small shop right here in Chicago, and they have a great deal of pride in their work

[JohnnyB]

Ibanez? 

Notice he said the MIJ Ibanezes, not the MIKs or Chinese ones, and I concur. The MIJ ones are made at a premium guitar facility in Hammamatsu, which does the upscale stuff for Yamaha as well. From what I've heard from the enthusiasts, Hammamatsu instruments are just about as handmade as G&Ls.

I have a Hammamatsu Ibanez AS-180, which is an ES-335 copy with slightly different "ears". Its fit and finish makes a Heritage 535 feel rough by comparison. And its sunburst finish is so nicely done that when I set it next to my guitar teacher's sunburst ES-335, it made the Gibson look cheap.

[hamersandstrats]

I wonder where my 1986 Ibanez Roadstar II was made?

[Wizard333]

Surh Classic, Ash, transparent green finish, MoP Pickguard, Rosewood/Maple neck, nothin fancy, Strainless Frets, Noiseless SSC System. Discounted price: $2800.

Used they are cheaper, and you can go with a plain Jane and get away for less, but the guitar above isnt exactly super fancy. No maple top, no birdseye neck or ebony board, etc. Closer to $3k than $2k.

The thing about custom guitars in the used market is, you pay a lot for the little custom features you personally like, but when you sell it you have to find someone else looking for the exact same feature set as you did, or people will pay much less. I have yet to see a used Suhr that had enough of the features I wanted to throw down the big bucks to get it. If I'm paying that kind of cash, I'm buying new and getting EXACTLY what I want, rather than compromising but still spending well over a grand to get what someone else wanted.

I also stand behind what I said about MIJ Ibanez. Thing about pulling something off the rack and playing it is, you are getting a factory "setup", which mostly amounts to throwing strings on it and sending it out the door. I could rant for days about that but I'll refrain You have to play something set up right (i.e. the way you like) to really get a feel for it. When I shop for guitars I take my setup tools with me, its the only way to really tell as factory setups are generally god-awful. I get a real test drive, the store gets a free setup, everyone wins. If you've set up as many different guitars as I have and seen what they are capable of, you might have a different opinion than an off the rack feel can provide.

Also, something can be quite well made but not to your taste. Andersons are generally very well made, though I personally dont care for the neck shapes they use. Doesn't make em bad guitars by any stretch. There are a fair amount of decent set neck 2hb mahogany guitars out there nowadays to, but I assume most here have a preference for Hamer for various reasons. They do feel different than others.

[hamersandstrats]

My buddy just picked up a 'plain jane" Suhr-has the tone blender thingy, but thats about it. Dropped $2K new, out the door. Just a candy apple red, rosewood board job. Now, if he wanted the same features from a warmoth guitar, he'd be in for about $2K after the buzz feiten, plek and fret work is all said and done.

[tombo]

Used they are cheaper, and you can go with a plain Jane and get away for less, but the guitar above isnt exactly super fancy.  No maple top, no birdseye neck or ebony board, etc.  Closer to $3k than $2k. 

Wizard333,

Check out Tone Merchants and their Suhr page. If you click on the "more info" button you gain access to the PDF spec sheets. At the bottom of the sheets, it gives the list price and the discounted price. Many of the Suhr Classics and T's go for about $2,100. There's a T on there that went for $1,942. The more customized ones go for more.

Also, I'm not doubting that you bring your tools to the shop and have even been able to set up some guitars. No disrespect intended, but if I owned a shop and you took your tools out to set up one of my guitars, I'd ask you kindly to put them away. Hmmm......I'm just saying it's rather hard to believe, but I'm sure you've been able to do it.

Hi Johnny B.....I'm gonna be a jerk and correct you on this one, but respectfully correct you. The pricier Ibanez guitars are made in Nagano. Nagano is the cradle of Japan's guitar industry both acoustic and electric. FWIW, I like the Ibanez John Scofield model. Hamamatsu is home to Yamaha and Boss. I've never heard of Ibanez' being built there, but I could be wrong. Also, the best bargain around - Tokai - is built in Hamamatsu. A bargain **IN JAPAN** that is.

What I (and other Japanese friends) find funny is that Americans go out of their way to purchase Japanese guitars like Tokai and Van Zandt (name licensed to a Jpns. company called PGM, they also license the Joe Barden name and put it on hardware and guitars here). Yup, there's some cool vintage Tokais that you might find in the U.S. (I think Serial has a cool Tokai strat copy). However, many of the guitars being built today are as expensive as custom American made guitars, and aren't near the level of quality. Once you walk out the door with these guitars, their value skyrockets downwards. Same with the craze of buying Fender Japan guitars - especially on boards like the Telecaster Discussion Page. The MIJ Fender guitars look nice, but they're nothing really special. Great if you can buy 'em cheap and use them for utility guitars though.

ESP has a custom shop right here in Nagoya and I just laugh at the prices they ask for a custom made guitar. Walk a little to your right in the shop and there are the Andersons and Suhrs for the same price. Guess what those prices are over here? About $US 4,500 - $4,750.

Edited to add for W333: TAG doesn't use birdseye maple because it's just not good wood for necks. I can't tell you "why?", but he's worked with guitars long enough to know. Same with ebony on a strat or tele neck. They just don't work.

[Mike_C]

G&L everyone I've played has seemed rock solid and well built. G&L is another one of those under appreciated brands. another six string Rodney Dangerfield.

[Hackubus]

When I wanted to start playing, I wanted nothing but Gibsons. Over the years, I've bought many Gibsons I thought I had to have. The last two years have seen me branch into Hamers & a Tele or two.

For me, the Hamers out-Gibson at their own game in the Flying V & Explorer department. I'm sure they do with all the other fine Hamer guitars, but that's where my head's at these days: Explorers & Vs.

That being said, I've used my Hamers a LOT more in the last year than I have my old trusty Les Pauls. And NO my '57 TV Junior is not for sale!

[Wizard333]

Main reason Birdseye is a questionable neck wood is that it is weaker than standard Eastern US hard rock maple. Some shy away from it for that reason. That being said, I have a US made Ibanez MA3 American Master neck through that is birdseye, also the thinnest neck ever to grace a guitar most likely, and its rock solid. 15 years old now with 12-56 strings at standard pitch and no twist, hardly ever have to adjust the rod. Not all birdseye necks are weak. I understand the reasons for caution, however.

The main thing affecting neck wood strength is how its cut, not the type. Mahogany is not a particularly strong wood either, no where near eastern hard maple. If you quarter saw a neck though, its much more stable, even if its not eastern maple, than a poorly cut maple neck. BTW, Ibanez Japan quater saws their necks now.

As for Ebony on a strat neck, its personal taste. Suhr also claims he doesnt like maple necks on mahogany guitars because the woods dont complement each other well, I concur; but then he loves basswood bodies with maple caps. I consider basswood = crapwood and I cant stand it. Its soft like pulp and dings if you look at it the wrong way, which people often try to prevent by using way too much finish, not good for resonance. I've also never heard a situation where a given pickup didnt sound better in Ash/Alder/Mahogany than in basswood. Personal preference; there is no right or wrong, a guitar can be well made with any of the above, you just may not like the sound and it may be more prone to cosmetic damage. My personal favorite woods are Ash and South American Mahogany (neck+body), which thank goodness Hamer still has and uses. You cant cut it or import it anymore (legally at least...) so get em while they're hot.

As for asking me to put my tools away, that makes it easy I shop somewhere else! I always ask first and point out that I'm a pro; I make money doing that stuff, and invite them to check out my work. If they are dicks about it then they dont get my money (or the money of any of the people that ask my advice). Simple. Most folks running the stores around here know me so not really a problem.

Japanese Ibanez guitars are made at the Fugijen Gakki factory and have been for a long long time. Same factory used to make the Japanese Fender stuff to, among others. Very high quality work coming out of there over the years. Sounds like prices in Japan are different than they are here; top notch Japanese instruments sell for quite a bit less here than their US counterparts. I'll put the quality on my RGT3120 up against any guitar, period; and it only set me back $1100. The top alone would cost an extra $500 or so on a Les Paul. VS an $1100 US made guitar, I can't think of anything that comes close. Not all Japanese guitars are created equal, same as with US made ones. I have no affinity for any but the upper line Ibanez instruments. I agree I'd take a Suhr or Anderson any day of the week over an ESP custom shop if the price were even close. Come to think of it, I have no desire to own an ESP, period.

I've also heard what someone else said above RE Figijen Ibanez and G&Ls; and I heard it from G&L VP Dave McLaren, who's father helped Fender set up production in the Fugijen factory. His comment was also that there is a lot of hand work and personal attention put into guitars there.

[JohnnyB]

Hi Johnny B.....I'm gonna be a jerk and correct you on this one, but respectfully correct you.  The pricier Ibanez guitars are made in Nagano.  Nagano is the cradle of Japan's guitar industry both acoustic and electric.  FWIW, I like the Ibanez John Scofield model.  Hamamatsu is home to Yamaha and Boss.  I've never heard of Ibanez' being built there, but I could be wrong.  Also, the best bargain around - Tokai - is built in Hamamatsu.  A bargain **IN JAPAN** that is.

Given that you live over there, and I should have qualified what I wrote with "what I heard was..." you're probably right. Now that you mention it, Nagano does sound familiar.

I will say, however, that my AS-180 is a Japanese model, and is a now-discontinued 335 clone that's more like a 335 than the Scofield because the Scofield is more upscale. Scofield has ebony board, figured maple, and big inlays. My AS-180 has dots, rosewood board, and plain-jane maple. I've switched the pickups, revealing that the AS-180/Scofield is a faithful enough copy to have the fluted spruce filler block between the center maple block and the underside of the top, just like a real ES-335.

Wherever it's made, the discontinued AS-180 and the present-day Scofield are really well-made thinlines. I like mine a lot, and if I hadn't gotten into Hamers, that AS-180 would be my #1.

[Wizard333]

I have an Ibanez AS120 335 killer and its fantastic.

It sure is a small world for guitar geeks! Funny how two Americans are defending the virtues of Japanese guitars against a Japanese guy that says US made ones are better!

[darc]

Same with ebony on a strat or tele neck. They just don't work.

In what regard? In terms of the resulting guitar not sounding like a strat? Or in terms of the guitar not sounding "good".

Sounds like madness to me - I say ebony on everything! But I have played a couple of Custom Shop Fender Strats and thought, "That's really cool, but it doesn't sound anything like a strat..." So maybe that's where he's going with the ebony comment?

[silentman]

I have several guitars with Birdseye necks. 2 EBMM Petruccis, a wolfgang, and my Hamer Daytona. The petrucci's barely move (and those are thin), the peavey seems stable (too new to me), and the daytona moves all over the place. Not really a problem, but it needs to be tweaked more often than not. My diablo I never touch - maple neck. My mahogany necked Hamers get tweaked seasonally usually.

+1 for ebony.

[jwhitcomb3]

Parker. I sold my Fly Deluxe a couple years back and have been jonesing for a Fly Mojo, but haven't come up with the scratch. Someday...

-Jonathan

[tombo]

It sure is a small world for guitar geeks! Funny how two Americans are defending the virtues of Japanese guitars against a Japanese guy that says US made ones are better!

Hey, I'm still an American citizen, but sometimes.......I think I'm turning Japanese.

Darc, yeah, partially because it ends up not sounding like "a strat." Also, I think I recall TA saying they didn't use birdseye because of the strength and its tendency to warp.

[Jimbilly]

I picked up a MM Stingray 4 a few weeks ago, it didn't take long to realize what a fine quality guitar that one is.

[sw686blue]

When I have some cash I'd like to look at getting a Suhr Standard. I got a chance to play one for a bit and I was blown away by the quality of workmanship, the feel of the neck and the stunning quilt top.

They're cheap on the used market too!

[Bass Guy Dave]

I've had a MusicMan Sterling for just over 5 years. Terrific instrument. It completes my trifecta of bass tones (Stock 1st Gen set-neck Cruise for a close-enough P-bass tone, a 2TEK cruise for the Jazz and, well....the MusicMan!)

Gotta get me an 8-string in the mix, though.

The MusicMan sounds great and has the best feeling neck finish I've ever seen. Points for originality to EBMM on the Bongo design, but The few I've played just don't have the right feel for me. Took guts to put that look on the market though. Kudos for stepping out of the box on that one.

If I ever lost my Sterling, I'd have to find a way to get another. I really do like it.

Best Wishes

[polara]

Our bassist just got a Stingray last weekend and she loves it. There were some G&Ls that were in contention too, but it just had the feel.

[cmatthes]

I've been liking this old one of mine a lot lately:

An 80s classic.

[BadJaxx]

Dean....

currently i have 4 Deans and 3 Hamers....

1 each of Fender, Warmoth, Bowen Custom...

had PRS, PRS SE, ESP, Schecter, Epi, Fenders, Gibson, Carvin...