sixesandsevens Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 Let's say you're jamming with a group. One person comes up with a groove and everyone adds to it to build up an "A" part.Do any of you have a way that "works" to improvise a B or C part without:working out a B part in advance (or possibly a set of alternatives to-be-decided on in the moment), or dropping down to one player and building a B part just like you did the A part?I'm thinking specifically about doing completely improvised performances with some friends and this is one of our challenges.
Jakeboy Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 I love doing things like this. For me and the peeps I jam with it is all in the moment of who has the riff, or the middle eight chord structure. Sometimes I like to stop and talk it through...what are we thinking here? What would sound best? A slower bridge? A crescendo back to the main riff, verse, or chorus, etc. There are no rules. Usually someone has something tucked away that they bring out that the others can build on.When that doesn't work, I go the Townsend route and write it all out in advance.
django49 Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 It depends upon your comfort level amongst the players. In my (our) case, usually the "leader" will give some sort of signal, verbally or by waving, etc, to make a change. Could be "Go to the four", "Modulate up a half step", "Watch me!".For us, the leader is (usually) the one that brings the tune (or the riff/groove/etc). Or, if vocals are involved, steps upfront to the mic.The first time through is often rough, but seems to fall into place quickly, thereby being a good learning experience.Obviously, if the folks are NOT used to playing together, there is more of a learning curve.And a "dry/erase" board is a good way to ease people thru the plan when you take a moment or two to plot a course....It is often nice to have a "cheat sheet" for when folks get lost.
Tres Aardvarks Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 It depends upon your comfort level amongst the players. In my (our) case, usually the "leader" will give some sort of signal, verbally or by waving, etc, to make a change. Could be "Go to the four", "Modulate up a half step", "Watch me!". ... And a "dry/erase" board is a good way to ease people thru the plan when you take a moment or two to plot a course....It is often nice to have a "cheat sheet" for when folks get lost. I'd think a verbal cue / leadup would work well (assuming certain abilities). Probably need something more informative than "take it to the bridge, y'all!".... Anyway, shouting out the next chords / progression, modulation amount, etc should do it. I used to shout out the chords when teaching my buddies songs. We'd also use a dry erase board to write out the chords to make it easier for them to remember and follow along.
chromium Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 Might help to call out the changes ahead of time, and then just have someone cue them as you go (as mentioned). When I discovered Krautrock and got turned onto Can, I was impressed by the fact that their songs were constructed via "instant composition" (their term) in the studio... improvised and then edited down. Their Tago Mago album really blew my mind:
elduave Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 Do whatever your nuts tell you to do.Just don't do what Chris' nuts tell you to do. I kid cuz I luv.
anotherfreak Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 It would be tough to change mid groove, even if you have a short progression/lick. You might just have to stop and start a new groove. Even with experienced players that know you, changing a groove/lick is hard to do "improvisationally"
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 I guess I have to ask: what's the purpose?Because different purposes will result in different techniques.For instance, if the goal is to come with something recordable, then yeah: you should work out what your chords are and maybe even rhythms for section A, B, C, etc.If the goal is to just have fun but not do the same progressions the whole time, and you aren't keeping anything, then I like your 2nd idea. I wouldn't have thought of that.If the goal is to test your abilities to follow, feel, and come up with stuff, I'd say once you get a groove going, yell change and then everyone starts doing something new...since improvisation cannot be successful if *everyone* starts improvising, you are all forced to listen to each other and come to a consensus who you will follow, changing your part to fit it. That goal is to teach your group to keep playing and even if it sounds like a train wreck, find a way to get yourself back on track. It will really test your listening, musical flexibility, etc.Do that 5 or 6 times, and you'll end up with an almost unspoken agreement on how to deal with the sudden chaos, how to coalesce it into music again.Or maybe 50 or 60 times. Dunno. I've never tried it.But it sounds good in theory.Still, the point is: there are different reasons to improvise...pick one that is important to your group, and then arrange your improvisation rules to exercise/fulfill that goal.
it's me HHB Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 we do this in BBD a lot, but there are only the three of us and we've had the same lineup since 1998. One person just gets the spirit and starts something new be rhythmic or harmonic, we just ram it down the other twos throats til it catches on LOL . Many time I find the overlap the most interesting part and don't expect to turn on a dime but after all these years sometimes we do, its like ESP and we always get quite the thrill when it happens. Its improvised jamming, I don't expect to be what it isn't, if it takes 8 bars to get on track I don't care. My big thing is to say " you know what happens if you make a mistake ? ...............nothing LOL "
gorch Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 I'd say try to find out, because it's all improvisation. In a couple of tries you will have developed a set of moves that work in the team. Maybe talk in advance for key changes , tempo or whatever.
sixesandsevens Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 Thanks for the ideas. Might help to call out the changes ahead of time, and then just have someone cue them as you go (as mentioned). When I discovered Krautrock and got turned onto Can, I was impressed by the fact that their songs were constructed via "instant composition" (their term) in the studio... improvised and then edited down. Their Tago Mago album really blew my mind: That's a great example. For me the goal is what they're doing, but live-without-a-net so that we "write" in front of an audience. I'd say try to find out, because it's all improvisation. In a couple of tries you will have developed a set of moves that work in the team. Maybe talk in advance for key changes , tempo or whatever. I agree that you have to experiment to find out, but I've blown enough of my life reinventing wheels that I figured I'd check around to see what I was missing first. I think the next time we jam I'm going to propose a small set of "hub" grooves where we can signal each other (with a lick, fill, head-bob, SMS, whatever) to "head to X". That will give us a way to have a mix of synchronized changes that we can use inbetween the turn-taking buildup sections... I suppose that if your memory is good enough, each time you've built a groove you could add it to the groove-queue and head back to groove k - x at a moments' notice as a group... But I'm not convinced my memory is that good.
gorch Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Probably talk about key changes in advance. Another key, another sound feel. Move ahead with the same groove in another key, eventually ending up in a totally different groove, because in another key all sounds different and leads to different playing. Kind of.
JimiH Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Take a lesson from the masters, the white beard is optionalhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mIDn2wFRvfE
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sixesandsevens
Let's say you're jamming with a group. One person comes up with a groove and everyone adds to it to build up an "A" part.
Do any of you have a way that "works" to improvise a B or C part without:
I'm thinking specifically about doing completely improvised performances with some friends and this is one of our challenges.
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