Buzz Feiten Cloudy Conundrum

[velorush]

Been Strat-less for a while now.  After playing a couple of Suhrs, I've decided a [used] Classic would be my next S-type and have been searching for one with a larger neck.  There are tons of them out there with the Medium C carve, the larger ones seem to be quite scarce.  Having finally located one with a larger neck and other specs to my liking, I've noticed it was made during the time when all Suhr guitars had the Buzz Feiten system installed. 

I am generally aware of the Feiten "system," but I've never played a guitar so configured, so I made the mistake of investigating online.  Now I'm in a complete fog and the guitar I thought was perfect seems significantly less so.  Here's what I've found, and I'm hoping I can get some real (you know, HFC BS-free) answers about this.

1. found the TGP thread where John Suhr discussed why they no longer offered it (c.2011)
2. read where people were having tuning issues playing BF guitars in bands where others used non-BF guitars
3. read where people loved the BF system / and just as many who hated it
4. read where people recording with BF guitars couldn't record additional tracks with non-BF guitars due to tuning issues
5. couldn't find any reference to removing the BF system

The physical difference seems to be a 1/32" move of the nut toward the bridge.  Can a BF-equipped guitar be intoned normally and then would it play nice with non-BF guitars?  If not, can it be un-installed?  Does it matter?

[murkat]

There is a bunch of PT Barnum out there....

BF is great if you play A LOT of open chords (alone).

Yes, a BF can be un installed.

I quote myself,

Make it a Rocket, not a command center.

[kizanski]

BF = BS. 

[anotherfreak]

I used to install them, It matters more on open chords and cheaper guitars that NEED a good setup anyway. 

1) do you love the guitar

2)buy it

[veatch]

BF guitars sound good alone or with a piano, but, as said, can be annoying with other non-BF guitars.  If intonation bothers you enough to want a BF system, it will bother you more when playing with non-BF guitarists.

In your case, I agree with anotherfreak:  if you love the guitar, buy it.  A simple (slightly less simple, actually) nut replacement will get you back to non-BF.  IMFO, if you setup the guitar right, those open chords sound pretty good.  No BF needed.  (FWIW, a "good setup" has more to do with slot depth in the nut than bridge setup...)

 

Of course, opinions vary, trust your own ears.  If it sounds good, it is good.

[velorush]

Thanks, everyone.  No, I didn't even notice it was BF until I began studying it in detail.  I sound like crap on any guitar and have the ears of a snake, so a 1/32" alteration and 0.1 cents difference in tuning wouldn't matter two wits to me.  The thing that got me concerned was reading that (as you mention, Veatch) they have problems playing well with others.  I have enough troubles sounding good with others, I don't need a guitar that makes it more difficult.  If given the option, I would not choose a BF guitar, if only because I don't use it now and everything seems to be serviceable enough. 

As far as converting, from what I read on John Suhr's posts (and one of the primary reasons he no longer offers it) the nut slot is cut on a BF guitar the 1/32" difference, so converting to non BF means having a nut with a shelf made... complications and complications.

The other thing is geography.  I won't be able to try the thing out until I've bought it, so I'm beginning to become very disenamored with this otherwise perfect guitar.  Shame.  Suhrs with larger necks seem very scarce.

[veatch]

Nah. If it is a good price, buy it. Try it as is. If you don't love it, sell it. If you do love it, but the Intonation bothers you, get it fixed. 1/32" is easy to do and make look good. Of course, there's always the chance that it won't bother you. 

This all assumes you have the money to buy it.

[The Shark]

I've had eight or ten BF equipped guitars over the years.  Then, my buddy Chris who worked on all my guitars from 1984 until his death said something very profound.  "All the music you listen to was played on guitars without it".  It made sense to me. 

I've always found that BF is a compromise.  I always feel like the G string is sharp just a bit on conventional guitars.  I always tune so the green and red light can't figure out who's in charge on the tuner.  I found the BF system mitigated that, but never really thought it mattered much.  Previous comments about playing with other guitarists without the tuning system makes perfect sense.  They will be intonated "differently". 

[kizanski]

1 hour ago, The Shark said:

"All the music you listen to was played on guitars without it".

This.

[MCChris]

18 hours ago, veatch said:

a "good setup" has more to do with slot depth in the nut than bridge setup...

And this.

[murkat]

14 hours ago, velorush said:

Shame

Not really. Suhr is very approachable. They may have a solution already to convert back to non BF. Asked.

[anotherfreak]

THIS is why I think Guitar/Organ Trios sound so good, all that wavy gravy in the organ made the guitar sound in tune

[Duplex Dave]

There are no fretted instruments that are 'perfectly' intonated, we have adjustments to get them close, very close. Even the finest pianos have to make compromises in temperament to get them to sound right,    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuning  (read about temperament).

I like the quote above about "All the music you listen to was played on guitars without it"

Any luthier worth his salt should be able to make you a new nut while adding 1/32" to the end of your fingerboard. 

I vote for buying the guitar.

 

[gorch]

 

On 7.10.2016 at 10:51 PM, kizanski said:

BF = BS. 

Many thanks for clarifying! I had been confused for a second.

On 8.10.2016 at 2:42 AM, velorush said:

Thanks, everyone.  No, I didn't even notice it was BF until I began studying it in detail.  I sound like crap on any guitar and have the ears of a snake, so a 1/32" alteration and 0.1 cents difference in tuning wouldn't matter two wits to me.  The thing that got me concerned was reading that (as you mention, Veatch) they have problems playing well with others.  I have enough troubles sounding good with others, I don't need a guitar that makes it more difficult.  If given the option, I would not choose a BF guitar, if only because I don't use it now and everything seems to be serviceable enough. 

...

Don't understand the issue here. Since you don't hear a difference, why caring about others having different ears in band context? Whatever they say, you won't notice anyway. Live Your happy life!

 

[Armitage]

...until you want to sell it one day...

[velorush]

12 hours ago, gorch said:

Many thanks for clarifying! I had been confused for a second.

Don't understand the issue here. Since you don't hear a difference, why caring about others having different ears in band context? Whatever they say, you won't notice anyway. Live Your happy life!

Simply put, I have never played a BF'd guitar, so I have no experience with them.  I read a good bit, found way too many comments and came here for clarification.  If I understand correctly, the difference in a band context is such that most everyone hears a difference, and, again, from what I read, it isn't just first position differences.

In summary, I don't need another project and will pass on this one.  It's a shame as I have yet to find very many Suhr Classics with large necks.  It's not like I have to have one this evening.  Doesn't have to be a Suhr, but I really like the quality in the two I played. 

Thanks, everyone for the help and comments.  The search continues (and after all, isn't that's the fun part, anyway?)!

[kizanski]

20 minutes ago, velorush said:

Simply put, I have never played a BF'd guitar, so I have no experience with them.

I've played many.
Simply put, it's snake oil put forth by snake oil salesmen and snake oil marketeers.

[DBraz]

I've owned 3 BF equipped guitars and alone, with a band, or otherwise it was never a night-and-day difference for me.  I wouldn't bother.

 

[HSB0531]

And what about the BF designed speaker cabinets?

 

[django49]

3 hours ago, HSB0531 said:

And what about the BF designed speaker cabinets?

 

I think there are a couple different ones. The one I got here (thanks, Bubs!) is a fairly compact cab with 2 12s in opposing corners. Interesting cab with mixed speakers, one front and one back mounted. I like it a lot, but they are not real easy to find. As best I know, the ones like mine, at least those made for and labeled Fuchs, are no longer offered. They may have stopped making them over a decade ago.

(Unrelated, but another hard to find 2 x12, by THD, is also well worth trying out should you stumble onto one. I am really not sure which of the 2 I like better).

[bubs_42]

8 hours ago, HSB0531 said:

And what about the BF designed speaker cabinets?

 

 

5 hours ago, django49 said:

I think there are a couple different ones. The one I got here (thanks, Bubs!) is a fairly compact cab with 2 12s in opposing corners. Interesting cab with mixed speakers, one front and one back mounted. I like it a lot, but they are not real easy to find. As best I know, the ones like mine, at least those made for and labeled Fuchs, are no longer offered. They may have stopped making them over a decade ago.

(Unrelated, but another hard to find 2 x12, by THD, is also well worth trying out should you stumble onto one. I am really not sure which of the 2 I like better).

Buzz went into cabinet making in the 90's. He wanted to make a cabinet that was as much an instrument as the guitar. Compact, Light, and Resonant. To my knowledge he made two designs the most popular being the compact 2x12.

Popular Wood

One speaker top mounted, one speaker rear mounted

Acoustic spray on the exterior (NO TOLEX  to dampen the cab) and foam on the inside to cut down any woof.

He designed them around greenback speakers but Fuchs uses the ET65 in them. I pulled the speakers out of the Fuchs Labeled one I have and put WGS Reapers in and that really made a difference too my ears. I have also played one loaded with Tone Tubby Ceramics when I was in Nashville last year.  I bought the one django has which oddly enough if you look at it the speakers are the opposite of any other ones i've seen. Great light cabinets that don't take up much more room than a full size 1x12. It is actually narrower than my Fuchs 1x12. I'm not much of a closed back guy, I gravitate to open back to my playing. So I may move it sometime soon so I can purchase the Fuchs Verticle 2x12 open back. 

[bubs_42]

http://www.fuchsaudiotechnology.com/amps/feiten-cabinets

[Duplex Dave]

Okay, now it makes sense. If you play the BF compensated nut system through the BF cabinet it puts you in tune with the rest of the band, can't use one without the other... 

[kizanski]

16 hours ago, Duplex Dave said:

Okay, now it makes sense. If you play the BF compensated nut system through the BF cabinet it puts you in tune with the rest of the band, can't use one without the other... 

Actually, what it does is creates notes which no one but BF can hear.