Is there a Hamer with Gibby scale length?

[MTM105]

I duuno.

Just thought I'd ask.

I know its a volitile topic on HFC.

Rhetorical question. Does one prefer Hamer to Gibby scale length??

[sw686blue]

I don't think so. The 24.75" is the closest.

[Feynman]

Wait - 24.75 is NOT Gibson scale length?

[JGale]

Is 24.75", but I don't know how I know that. Prefer 25" ala Baker, et al.

[cmatthes]

I don't really have a definite preference, as I like guitars with different scale lengths for different things. That being said, I guess I'm more "at home" with the Gibson/Hamer scale lengths, although nothing beats a good Fender/25.5" guitar.

Not sure why you'd think this is a controversial topic, but here's some info from a pretty reliable source (StewMac) that may help:

Fender

One of the most common scale lengths is the Fender 25-1/2" guitar scale. Found on Stratocasters®, Telecasters®, and the huge variety of instruments inspired by them as well as the replacement, and custom parts available for them.

The 25-1/2" produces a rich, strong, bell-like tone, and defined low-end.

Gibson

The Gibson 24-3/4" scale is also very common, but it is also the most confusing of all scale lengths — this is because it rarely ever measures out to be 24-3/4 inches! This scale has gradually changed over the past fifty or so years due to changes in production equipment.

Being shorter than the Fender 25-1/2" scale, the Gibson 24-3/4" scale has a lower tension/easier to play feel, and a warmer tone.

PRS, Dobro, & National

When luthier Paul Reed Smith was developing his now highly desirable guitars, he was looking to capture the harmonic richness of the Fender electric's tone as well as the fullness, warmth, and playability of the Gibson electric guitars. PRS opted for a scale length of 25", which is also found on Dobro and National guitars.

Gibson scale length was typically 24.75" up through 1954

after that, it changed to 24 9/16" through 1959

All through the '60s, it was 24 5/8" (through 1969)

Kalamazoo and Nashville scale lengths since then have been 24 9/16" (Montana stuff is apparently 24 5/8", since 1992).

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

I don't know how many guitars I've played on over the years.

I never once noticed a scale-length difference.

Does .5 to .75 of an inch really matter that much? (no sexual implication intended)

[bubs_42]

Wow, didn't know that about the Gibson Scales. That's interesting.

[cmatthes]

I don't know how many guitars I've played on over the years.

I never once noticed a scale-length difference.

Does .5 to .75 of an inch really matter that much? (no sexual implication intended)

Nathan - first of all, welcome aboard! Good to have you here.

As far as difference, it can be pretty subtle, but the primary difference is in the brighter, more harmonically rich tones of a slightly longer (Fender) scale v. the warmer, less stiff/easier, mid-heavy character of the shorter scales.

Paul Smith's 25" scale was designed to give the best of both worlds, as much as possible - it's pretty much in the middle. There actually is a difference in feel, and if you were to play two otherwise identical guitars (different scale lengths) back to back, it would jump out at you - even for that little fraction of an inch.

I'm happy with either, and like both. Neither one is "better", but there are people who vehemently support one over the other.

Kind of like politics...

[silentman]

As mentioned earlier, string tension is the biggest difference for me. Spacing wise, it doesn't make a difference in feel to me.

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

Heck, I can't really tell much difference when I switch from a 22-fret to a 24-fret!

...or does that have zero effect on scale length?

...I think I might have noticed scale length differences back when I was a bass player, but I can't recall clearly.

I think I might be a little unsophisticated: as long as my fingers hit the right notes and the sound coming out of the amp has the right distorted or clean and single or double coil sound I intend, I'm pretty happy.

[MTM105]

What is the take??

Essentially, Hamer marketed/produced a Gibby clone(s) with shorter scale length. Thats the gimmick.

This makes playing harder or easier tension?? Playing a Hamer is good for shredding because it seems I can navigate the fretboard quicker.

[sw686blue]

The shorter the scale, the less tension on the strings.

[serial]

Heck, I can't really tell much difference when I switch from a 22-fret to a 24-fret!

...or does that have zero effect on scale length?

...I think I might have noticed scale length differences back when I was a bass player, but I can't recall clearly.

I think I might be a little unsophisticated: as long as my fingers hit the right notes and the sound coming out of the amp has the right distorted or clean and single or double coil sound I intend, I'm pretty happy.

The number of frets doesn't have any effect and is not figured into scale length. Scale length is effectively the length of the string "in play" between the nut and the bridge saddle break. The longer that is, the more tension on the string because it has to be wound up higher to get to a certain pitch than a shorter string length does.

The fret placement does have an effect on harmonics, etc. though.

[seeker]

What is the take??

Essentially, Hamer marketed/produced a Gibby clone(s) with shorter scale length. Thats the gimmick.

This makes playing harder or easier tension?? Playing a Hamer is good for shredding because it seems I can navigate the fretboard quicker.

Hamer started as a guitar repair shop that had an in with Gibson (repair parts). It's what they knew.

Oddly enough, most of the "shredder" Hamers are 25.5" (Superstrats with Locking Trems).

[zorrow]

Wow! That's interesting... I also thought Gibbies were mainly 24.75"!

I prefer 24.75" because of the way it "feels" to me. I use 10-52 strings in standard tuning, but one semitone down. I do often minor and major third bends, even with just one finger sometimes. With the same string gauge it is way harder for me to do that on a 25.5". That's why I use 9-46 on my 25.5" guitars. However, it doesn't "feel" the same.

The 22 vs 24 frets dilemma is about placing the neck pickup on the harmonic "sweet spot" that is supposed to be at the 24th fret position. If you watch carefully, you'll notice that 24-frets guitars have the neck pickup closer to the bridge pickup. For some people that's the wrong place to have the neck pickup, and that's why they chose 22 frets.

[mhmike]

So wait...most Hamers (bar Daytona, T-51, shredders, etc etc) are 24 3/4", correct?

And most recent/modern Gibsons are either 24 5/8" or 24 9/16"?

I'm just making sure. I highly doubt there's any difference to the playing feel between 5/8 and 9/16, though.

I can tell the difference between Fender and Gibson scales, though. I like Gibson's a little better for bending, Fenders for picking and strumming.

[Nuclear Wessel]

I can feel the difference between a 25 1/2" and a 24 and whatever scale length too. Playing up above the 17th fret, the frets get kinda close together on my short scale Chapps, whereas it doesn't feel quite so cramped on a 25 1/2" scale guitar. But playing chords with long stretches below the 12th fret on a 24.whatever scale guitar is noticeably easier for me than on a 25 1/2 scale guitar.

I hear a difference too. The 24.whatever scale guitars have more bass, a warmer high end. My bolt on guitars with a 25 1/2" scale have that Stevie Ray Vaughn ping. The shorter scale guitars don't have it.

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

Here's what Ed Roman has to say about 24 frets:

I prefer 24 frets, for a lot of reasons, the most important being, the rhythm pickup has to be installed off axis where the 24th fret would normally fall. On a 22 fret neck the pickup sits directly over the 24th fret harmonic node. Simply explained a node is a dead spot or a massive phase cancellation.

These nodes occur on the 7th fret, 12th fret, 19th fret and 24th fret. If you place a pickup directly on a node the midrange frequencies will cancel themselves out.

This was what made me ask about scale length vs 24 frets:

The neck angle is better on the PRS models with 24 frets than with 22, the string tension is slinkier and the overall playability is far better.

24 frets is the wave of the future, 22 frets is the older way.

I don't espouse or decry this argument for 24 frets. Argue amongst yourselves.

[jwhitcomb3]

I played a Tele for about 10 years before getting my first Hamer (Archtop GT). Spent the first week slamming my hand into the headstock every time I reached for first position.

I still prefer the feel and higher tension of a longer scale neck, but I usually just compensate by using heavier string on my G scale guitars.

-Jonathan

[MTM105]

So can't Hamer just have a guitar with a longer scale????

What about those Ibanez LPs back in the 70's??

[Nuclear Wessel]

So can't Hamer just have a guitar with a longer scale????

They do. The Monaco Super Pro is 25 1/2" scale. I think the Taladega might be too.

And in the 80's and 90's Hamer made lots of models with the Fender scale length.

[atquinn]

So wait...most Hamers (bar Daytona, T-51, shredders, etc etc) are 24 3/4", correct?

Wrong! All Hamer bolt-ons are Fender scale 25 1/2" scale. The Setnecks are a mixture. Most are Gibson (24 3/4") scale but (off the top of my head) setneck Californians, Mirage I's and II's, Monaco SuperPros, and Talladegas (regular and Pro) are all 25 1/2".

-Austin

[crunchee]

I don't know how many guitars I've played on over the years.

I never once noticed a scale-length difference.

Does .5 to .75 of an inch really matter that much? (no sexual implication intended)

Nathan - first of all, welcome aboard! Good to have you here.

As far as difference, it can be pretty subtle, but the primary difference is in the brighter, more harmonically rich tones of a slightly longer (Fender) scale v. the warmer, less stiff/easier, mid-heavy character of the shorter scales.

Paul Smith's 25" scale was designed to give the best of both worlds, as much as possible - it's pretty much in the middle. There actually is a difference in feel, and if you were to play two otherwise identical guitars (different scale lengths) back to back, it would jump out at you - even for that little fraction of an inch.

I'm happy with either, and like both. Neither one is "better", but there are people who vehemently support one over the other.

Kind of like politics...

+1. I use both Gibson type (on Hamers) and Fender scale length. It all depends on what sound you're trying to get. I haven't tried a PRS scale, but then again, I'm not looking to plunk down a sizeable chunk of money just to find out.

I used to have a late -70's Guild S-60D and S-300D (the 'bellbottom' models) with the 24 fret neck and Gibson-length scale. I didn't like them, gimme 22 fret anyday. I prefer having that pickup under that harmonic area, regardless of what Ed Roman says.

[mhmike]

So wait...most Hamers (bar Daytona, T-51, shredders, etc etc) are 24 3/4", correct?

Wrong! All Hamer bolt-ons are Fender scale 25 1/2" scale. The Setnecks are a mixture. Most are Gibson (24 3/4") scale but (off the top of my head) setneck Californians, Mirage I's and II's, Monaco SuperPros, and Talladegas (regular and Pro) are all 25 1/2".

-Austin

Well, with bar meaning besides, I knew all the bolt-ons were Fender scaled The only one I was unaware of was the Monaco SuperPro. I was just looking for a precise number on Hamer vs. Gibson scaled.

[atquinn]

So wait...most Hamers (bar Daytona, T-51, shredders, etc etc) are 24 3/4", correct?

Wrong! All Hamer bolt-ons are Fender scale 25 1/2" scale. The Setnecks are a mixture. Most are Gibson (24 3/4") scale but (off the top of my head) setneck Californians, Mirage I's and II's, Monaco SuperPros, and Talladegas (regular and Pro) are all 25 1/2".

-Austin

Well, with bar meaning besides, I knew all the bolt-ons were Fender scaled The only one I was unaware of was the Monaco SuperPro. I was just looking for a precise number on Hamer vs. Gibson scaled.

Clearly, in the battle of Austin vs. Reading Comprehension, Austin won by a mile Sorry.

-Austin