Something I've noticed since Jol left

[kriszguitar]

Some people own boats and motorcycles that cost more than a new Hamer. Those boats and motorcyclyes are for hobbyists just like guitars. Hamer's current prices are within reason for people who want them.

Game Over

[zenmindbeginner]

Listen man, I know how much motorcycles and boats cost. You are missing my point.

Game Over

You have got to be kidding...

[ArnieZ]

Listen man, I know how much motorcycles and boats cost. You are missing my point.

Zen,

Maybe you should clarify your point, because I guess i'm not getting it either .

ArnieZ

[Thundernotes]

Some people own boats and motorcycles that cost more than a new Hamer. Those boats and motorcyclyes are for hobbyists just like guitars. Hamer's current prices are within reason for people who want them.

Game Over

You can give chicks a ride on a motorcycle or boat. Compare the thrill level of that to your bedroom version of Smoke on the Water and see what happens.

[atquinn]

The Talladega is.

Well, yes. So is the Artist and various Monacos, but that's not my point. The Talladega was designed to be chambered, whereas Standards and Studios were not. Now Standards come standard () with chambers, but they can still be ordered solid. AFAIK, the same is not true of the Studio, for example.

-

Austin

[serial]

Listen man, I know how much motorcycles and boats cost. You are missing my point.

Game Over

You have got to be kidding...

Have to agree with Z here. Hamer can't continue to hope for sales to the unobtainium crowd. As fine as the guitars are and everything that Jol might have wanted to do in terms of direction would be fine if we weren't in the serious economic condition we're in and if the brand name had a different association, but it doesn't. people's buying habits have changed-ask any of the Harley Davidson workers in this area. That's why at least one well-known dealer has how many high end Hamers on his stocklist still with serial numbers dating back several years? Too many newish Hamers on the market being fire-sale'd at half the street price of a new one because people who used to have disposeable income now don't (or who are playing things safer) or because the list prices accelerated faster than actual demand.

Custom-only is probably a good plan at least in the short term, but when you outprice 95% of your customers (like me, who ordered 5 customs between 2000-2003), you need to have a better business model to stay alive. If I wanted a new Hamer right now, I could move a guitar or two, but current prices are past what I find reasonable for me to spend on a guitar. If I buy anything anymore, it's either utility instruments or vintage stuff that will hold more of their value. Hamer just doesn't have the "snob appeal" among most high-end purchasers that I can see. And I might be one of the biggest Hamer fans on the planet.

One SOB's opinion only.

[mirrorimij]

Have to agree with Z here.

Zendmind Z or KrisZ. Sounds like Zenmind but I thought I'd ask.

[serial]

Have to agree with Z here.

Zendmind Z or KrisZ. Sounds like Zenmind but I thought I'd ask.

Zenmindbeginner.

I think Hamer has a ton of untapped commercial potential and there IS a market out there that they could snag, but I don't think the uber high-end market is it. That is far too fickle of a target to put all Hamer's eggs in. Just spend a year on a forum like TGP and watch how many flavor-of-the-months there are that fade into obscurity when a new pretty arrives on the scene.

[LostArt]

I had some rather cool guitars made

the first non improv with that binding

korina junior (which later became a catalog model as I spec'ed it)

reverxe headstock standard with floyd rose and sustainiac

and yeah and for the record I was the one that got the punisher inlays approved although the buyer ultimately did not order the guitar from me.

many cool guitars were approved less were not. most of the time it was an issue that the cash it would take to order the instrument was too much.

Jol was good to me, rebuilt my d'angelico and always was receptive to what I had to say even if he did not agree.

it's a new dawn

Didn't you also do that bass with the planet inlays and stuff. That was one cool bass. I'd like to see a pic of that one again

the bass with the planet inlays was made for my wife.

another one that Frank U told me they would never do again and don't ask

blades body quilt maple sandwiched between chambered mohag, abolone inlay on body neck and headstock matching quilt headstock special neck contour to fit my wife's smaller hands, trc has her name, and the headstock was a redesigned fork to accommodate the 4 strings.

everyone that plays it and sees it loves it

I will try to post some pics

Adamas guitars has a custom order page where they show the various options available. You can mix and match, or just make a single mod to a stock model. You can also request other stuff such as a custom color or other unique feature and see what they come back with.

I think that Adamas is on the right track, now that the world is 99.9% online. The first thing that even us aging folks do is jump on the internet to see what's available.

When I enquired with Alpep about a Adamas with a custom color he gave me the benefit of his experience and told me what the general $ range of the upcharge would be and the likely additional wait time. If I had wanted to proceed, he would have asked the factory for a formal quote.

If a factory such as Hamer does not want to do something, they can either respond with a good reason such as not within their image, or with an exorbitant price to discourage a difficult job.

Right now, Hamer's website doesn't reflect that they are a custom shop. On the first page it looks as if they are a regular factory with standard production models.

the Adamas custom shop website needs a ton of work, if you really don't know what you are doing you can't make a final guitar. there are some things that are just not possible.

this is the problem with the mix and match menu not all situations are feesible

...

I'm pretty sure if you gave Shiskov a tree, a swiss army knife and ample time he would turn it into a mind blowing guitar.

...

I want to see this!

I saw/felt/played a guitar Mike S built when he was still living in a condo in Arlington Heights and had nothing but hand tools. It is a work of art (and nothing like a Hamer in design). He also builds jazzboxes that are completely hand carved. I've only come across one real DeAngelico in my travels and it was a bit crude compared to the stuff Mike Shiskov makes.

C'mon Gorchy. Pony up the dough and be the first guy on that side of the pond to own one

I played one of mike's jazz boxes and it was awesome.

as for my de angelico being crude think about the time it was made in and with what tools.....

[serial]

it's a new dawn

Didn't you also do that bass with the planet inlays and stuff. That was one cool bass. I'd like to see a pic of that one again

the bass with the planet inlays was made for my wife.

another one that Frank U told me they would never do again and don't ask

blades body quilt maple sandwiched between chambered mohag, abolone inlay on body neck and headstock matching quilt headstock special neck contour to fit my wife's smaller hands, trc has her name, and the headstock was a redesigned fork to accommodate the 4 strings.

everyone that plays it and sees it loves it

I will try to post some pics

Please do-that bass is one of the coolest Hamer works of art that ever left a shop floor and it's been years since it made an appearance here. I'm sure there are many newer regulars who would have their minds blown by that one!

[mirrorimij]

Al,

I wasn't referring to your DeAngelico. The one I was referring to was at Mandolin Bros. Sorry about that.

Now that you mention it, I guess I've come across two in my travels. When I saw yours they were already working on it so it would have been hard to evaluate.

Again, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

Bob

+1 to showing off the planet inlays.

[HSB0531]

The Talladega is.

Well, yes. So is the Artist and various Monacos, but that's not my point. The Talladega was designed to be chambered, whereas Standards and Studios were not. Now Standards come standard ( ) with chambers, but they can still be ordered solid. AFAIK, the same is not true of the Studio, for example.

-

Austin

I believe your question was: Huh?!? Other than Standards, what solidbody is chambered.

I answered a simple direct question.

If you knew all of this already, why did you ask?

[cmatthes]

The Talladega is.

Well, yes. So is the Artist and various Monacos, but that's not my point. The Talladega was designed to be chambered, whereas Standards and Studios were not. Now Standards come standard ( ) with chambers, but they can still be ordered solid. AFAIK, the same is not true of the Studio, for example.

-

Austin

I believe your question was: Huh?!? Other than Standards, what solidbody is chambered.

I answered a simple direct question.

If you knew all of this already, why did you ask?

You can order a Studio with a tone chamber.

[tbonesullivan]

Some people own boats and motorcycles that cost more than a new Hamer. Those boats and motorcyclyes are for hobbyists just like guitars. Hamer's current prices are within reason for people who want them.

*AHEM* some of us actually ride our motorcycles to save gas and find easy parking. Don't lump all of us in with the Harley Davidson crowd, which are technically "recreational vehicles", not modes of transportation. Boats can also hold a bunch of people at a time for combined recreation or even for fishing/etc.

I'm sorry, but IMHO Hamer custom shop models are overpriced

[cmatthes]

Some people own boats and motorcycles that cost more than a new Hamer. Those boats and motorcyclyes are for hobbyists just like guitars. Hamer's current prices are within reason for people who want them.

*AHEM* some of us actually ride our motorcycles to save gas and find easy parking. Don't lump all of us in with the Harley Davidson crowd, which are technically "recreational vehicles", not modes of transportation. Boats can also hold a bunch of people at a time for combined recreation or even for fishing/etc.

I'm sorry, but IMHO Hamer custom shop models are overpriced

I don't think he was lumping anybody in there. It was clear to me that he meant that people buy "toys" that cost far more than anything Hamer has ever produced. He is obviously not speaking about people who purchase a bike as a primary means of transportation.

Just two examples of things that can be considered luxury items, as pretty much any guitar is (unless it is a tool by which you earn a living).

I do not disagree that Hamer's pricing has gotten far beyond what 90-95% of their former or potential customer base will spend, but it is not that far off an off-the-rack PRS, and is about half of where the starting line for a Private Stock PRS (the Hamer Custom Order equivalent) is.

[HSB0531]

The original Hamer Standard was double that of a Les Paul, but far less than a vintage 50's one. Then, the Sunburst was "mass" produced to cater to those who couldn't afford the Standard. Then, once more, they stripped down the Sunburst to create the Special at an even lower price point.

Maybe they can offer a stripped down guitar again. One that's a 2-piece body, no maple cap, no binding, dots, slammer pickups and a set number of opaque finishes available.

[Pieman]

To show my ignorance, but who is Roger Sadowsky. And would Jol aspire to an operation like his? High end guitars. Sophisticated arteests. That's it. The artiste market. Not the artist market. Or starving artist market.

I bet it would cost a boatload to set up a guitar making operation. And in this economy, where nobody is taking any risk, there isn't much interest in funding a custom guitar business.

[HSB0531]

Roger is known for his high end archtops, Fender style basses, guitars, and variants of those.

It's really very hard to start up a business like that these days and make it work.

There are so many custom builders out there now.

I tried it a few years ago with a higher end speaker cabinet business.

Didn't work out.

[mirrorimij]

The original Hamer Standard was double that of a Les Paul, but far less than a vintage 50's one. Then, the Sunburst was "mass" produced to cater to those who couldn't afford the Standard. Then, once more, they stripped down the Sunburst to create the Special at an even lower price point.

Maybe they can offer a stripped down guitar again. One that's a 2-piece body, no maple cap, no binding, dots, slammer pickups and a set number of opaque finishes available.

I understand what you are saying but they intentionally downsized with the move to CT. In order to make a profit on those stripped down guitars you would have to produce a lot of them. When Jol returned he went above and beyond to take the factory feel out of that place (that is something that I will be eternally grateful to him for). Could they do it? I think so. Would they? I doubt it- at least for the time being.

Looking back I can't see how they made any money when P90 Specials, T51's and Daytonas LISTED at $800. It probably explains why they briefly partnered with Yamaha on the USA Pacifica project and more heavily relied on the imports as a source of revenue.

Plus, if there was really that big of a demand for stripped down Specials I think they would command a higher price on the used market.

[HSB0531]

The original Hamer Standard was double that of a Les Paul, but far less than a vintage 50's one. Then, the Sunburst was "mass" produced to cater to those who couldn't afford the Standard. Then, once more, they stripped down the Sunburst to create the Special at an even lower price point.

Maybe they can offer a stripped down guitar again. One that's a 2-piece body, no maple cap, no binding, dots, slammer pickups and a set number of opaque finishes available.

I understand what you are saying but they intentionally downsized with the move to CT. In order to make a profit on those stripped down guitars you would have to produce a lot of them. When Jol returned he went above and beyond to take the factory feel out of that place (that is something that I will be eternally grateful to him for). Could they do it? I think so. Would they? I doubt it- at least for the time being.

Looking back I can't see how they made any money when P90 Specials, T51's and Daytonas LISTED at $800. It probably explains why they briefly partnered with Yamaha on the USA Pacifica project and more heavily relied on the imports as a source of revenue.

Plus, if there was really that big of a demand for stripped down Specials I think they would command a higher price on the used market.

You're right. They would have to go with higher production as the main source of revenue.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Mike Lee]

You're right. They would have to go with higher production as the main source of revenue.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Or they could lower their cost structure at a given revenue level to improve margins.

Basic product development and manufacturing strategy tells you not to design a product, figure out what it costs, and mark it up to make a desired margin.

You have to determine what the customer is willing to pay for the product, design to that target, and keep your costs in line to achieve the margins required to stay in business and keep the investors happy.

Hamer has been doing the opposite for quite some time. While we all like a "hand made" guitar, it's very costly to do things the way Hamer does them. In some instances it results in a better product, but in others it simply adds cost with no benefit seen by the customer. And there is general agreement here that they've started to price themselves out of their market.

But they did just lower their costs a good bit by not having to pay Jol to work there anymore...

[Craig S]

In the meantime, the world is flooded with brilliant used Hamers, some even dirt cheap, as I proved yet again this weekend. Hamer-up people!

I would image that used Hamers being refered to a huge bang for the buck used is something that Hamer has mixed feelings about hate hearing... I would think a Company would love to be seeing high resale prices on used pieces like PRSi get.. I wonder if that is one thing that Jol was trying to foster with the new models. Being a great and inexpensive used item does do much for your new sales.. Bang for the buck can also be percieved as good for the money... Hamers are obviously more than just a good value..

[LostArt]

Hamer has been good to me.

they reissued the Watson for me and made a couple of very cool ones for my customers.

I even talked then into making a firebird for Mobbie but he could not come up with the $$$ at that time.

sustain block phantom was also the first list

the more I think about it I have little to really complain about.

I did hundreds of custom order guitars and only 2 were wrong both rejected by the customers one was shot in a color that was not approved and I did not allow it to go to the customer. the other had an issue with a custom neck carve that I thought was still within specs. but hamer built a new one for the customer.

I asked for some rather strange stuff and some did get rejected and I have to admit that I almost knew it would from jump but overall I was treated very well.

If you are specific with the orders and double check everything they all come out right. I had no errors I could blame on the crew.

whatever direction they go at this point I am right there with them.

[serial]

Or they could lower their cost structure at a given revenue level to improve margins.

Basic product development and manufacturing strategy tells you not to design a product, figure out what it costs, and mark it up to make a desired margin.

You have to determine what the customer is willing to pay for the product, design to that target, and keep your costs in line to achieve the margins required to stay in business and keep the investors happy.

Hamer has been doing the opposite for quite some time. While we all like a "hand made" guitar, it's very costly to do things the way Hamer does them. In some instances it results in a better product, but in others it simply adds cost with no benefit seen by the customer. And there is general agreement here that they've started to price themselves out of their market.

Now HERE is where the "Game Over" statement is more applicable I think. I agree 100% with Mike's points.

We all want Hamer to succeed, unfortunately, I think that there's a little bit of the "we know What our customers want better than they do" thing that's been going on for a while. Kind of ironic when one recalls the story of Paul and Jol going to Gibson in the 70's and being told that they didn't know what they were talking about and that Gibson had highly educated marketing experts telling them what the answers were.

How many $25.00 hamburgers are you going to sell?

[elduave]

I did notice on the blog that the last pic of the last update that had a guitar we're waiting on was deleted. In fact, I've put some pics on the Facebook page that have been deleted.