Got "NO" from Hamer

[Steve Haynie]

I have to be added to the list of those people that find it odd that photos submitted to the Hamer Fan Club show non-Hamers being played. Finding one Hamer, if that is all you own, for a photo is not too much to ask.

[Turdus]

Poe and Jisham are two examples of HFC members who don't own Hamers anymore.

Don't forget Saxon/Turdus! He's slave to 'The Look!'

Ha! Maybe the 3 of us can form a new Axis!

Hamers are nice guitars.

But, for now:

Hi Diddly Dee!

Teles, Strats and LP's for me!

I did pick up an Ovation today from a guy who is on "double secret" probation, LOL!

[zygleth]

My wrap on this- I was one who never heard of Hamer 2 years ago. I just bought a used Special w/P90's in it and it rocks; that makes 5 total ( don't really need any more Hamers, gast!). The guitars are well made by hand by dedicated people and I truely enjoy them. I refuse to buy any guitar made outside of the USA.

The business side of any manufactuirng facility is to make money, period. Hamer has to make numerous decisions to accomplish that and they will not please all. The competition is fierce in any business so I'm sure concepts like 6-Sigma, Lean Manufacturing are infiltrating their culture. These are not bad, just different. If companies like Hamer want to survive in the current global market they have to change and we are seeing those efforts/results.

Done

Well, maybe I'll buy another used one or two or........

[jisham]

I agree, that's kinda bad form, as is someone choosing a pic with a guitar that's not a Hamer to appear on the homepage.

Actually, that stuff doesn't bother me - I'd prefer to see ANYTHING other than the default picture!!

Not everybody here is a Hamer OWNER, so that's cool with me, but it is preferable to see at least a Hamer or two in gig shots if you can swing it! Honestly though, I'm just glad that a large majority of the posters here actually PLAY.

Well Chris, obviously others believe those of us that don't play Hamers any longer shouldn't post pics so I can abide by that as it is the Hamer Fan Club here. I will say I never meant to offend anyone with my -- god forbid -- Les Paul and recent gig pictures.

EDITED TO ADD: After re-reading some of the thread, I will say that getting an initial "no" on my previous custom order requests didn't really turn me off as I figured Hamer had a good reason. But when the requested option suddenly shows up on some other guitar, THAT'S what pisses me off. And as we can all see in this thread, this happened quite frequently.

[MCChris]

Well Chris, obviously others believe those of us that don't play Hamers any longer shouldn't post pics so I can abide by that as it is the Hamer Fan Club here. I will say I never meant to offend anyone with my -- god forbid -- Les Paul and recent gig pictures.

Yours had Hamers in 'em. They're just the other guy's.

[jisham]

Well Chris, obviously others believe those of us that don't play Hamers any longer shouldn't post pics so I can abide by that as it is the Hamer Fan Club here.  I will say I never meant to offend anyone with my -- god forbid -- Les Paul and recent gig pictures.

Yours had Hamers in 'em. They're just the other guy's.

Thanks but I prefer to not to rock the boat moving forward. I deleted my member photo too since it had an LP in it.

[Lockbody]

EDITED TO ADD: After re-reading some of the thread, I will say that getting an initial "no" on my previous custom order requests didn't really turn me off as I figured Hamer had a good reason. But when the requested option suddenly shows up on some other guitar, THAT'S what pisses me off. And as we can all see in this thread, this happened quite frequently.

Was the guitar it showed up on another custom order or a production guitar?

[jisham]

EDITED TO ADD: After re-reading some of the thread, I will say that getting an initial "no" on my previous custom order requests didn't really turn me off as I figured Hamer had a good reason.  But when the requested option suddenly shows up on some other guitar, THAT'S what pisses me off.  And as we can all see in this thread, this happened quite frequently.

Was the guitar it showed up on another custom order or a production guitar?

Several custom orders since then.

[Lockbody]

On something that'll go into production like Phoenix's example above I can understand, but yeah, you can't argue about the fact it sucks to see a item request shot down only to see it appear later.

I'm not sure it would turn me off the whole brand as it has seemed to do some.

[BadgerDave]

I don't think we can apply any of the traditional business models or any of the "trend of the minute" marketing principles to Hamer.

Why?

Simple. Hamer doesn't exist to make money. They are a prestige brand that is part of a large conglomerate that makes the vast majority of its profit by selling helicopter blades.

The music division is a very small piece of Kaman Industries that grew from an almost accidental application of aerospace technology. In short, the head Kaman (Bill or Charlie, I can never remember) decided to make the backs of guitars from a material that he made primarily for missle nosecones, helicopter blades and some other defense applications. Ovation grew and Kaman decided that an electric guitar would compliment the acoustic line. After failing to make an Ovation electric that consumers would buy, Kaman bought Hamer.

Ovation is a tiny part of Kaman and Hamer is a fraction of the size of Ovation. If you believe that Hamer only makes 3 guitars per working day, that means their gross income (based on an average MSRP of $3,000) is $1.125 million. Let's say they pay no rent or utilities on their corner of the Ovation factory and the only overhead expense is wages. You've got about 20 employees including Jol, Frank, Frank and Kim. To break even, these employees' wages would have to average $56,250 per year. That may be high or low, but the point is, once you pay the staff, you're awfully close to zero profit.

So, why bother? IMO, it's because Hamer is a prestige brand that compliments Ovation and the other pieces of the Kaman Music division. I suspect that Kaman cares very little whether Hamer turns a couple hundred thousand dollar profit or a couple hundred thousand dollar loss each year. I also suspect that the management of Kaman is very pleased to see the adoration that Jol is recieving in the guitar press (well-deserved, IMO). My best guess is that Kaman allows Jol to run Hamer with a free reign to build and sell what he wants. That would explain why you won't get bolt-on necks, 27 frets, or Floyds. I beleive Jol has openly admitted to being embarassed by Hamer's association with those types of guitars.

[elduave]

Straight from Levon Helms' mouth (paraphrasing)...

It's hard for them to keep track of, "Did we say no to Billy on the dead possum artwork? Should we call him to let him know we're now doing it for Bobby and that we're sorry?" There's just too much of that going on to keep track of. (I still think they shoud try though-EL)

They have to actively remind each other that just because they see alot of cool Redwood lying around they still have to retain the "limitedness" of the run of 30. As Chris said, I don't think it's personal.

The crew in New Hartford is more artsy fartsy than business, still, and that's good.

Please put a pickup selector ring on our run Levon. Thanks.

[SteveB]

It could also be that Hamer prefers sticking with tried and true things that they know work, rather than using customer money in an R&D experiment. Sure, some builders will do just about any damn thing you want, but you could be setting them up to try something they've never done before, in which case neither you or the builder really knows whats going to come out. So sticking to a formula may in fact be Hamer's way of ensuring the quality that comes out. Now, maybe some of these things they finally get a chance to experiment with in the factory and decide they can be successful with it, so then they can say "yes" or start building something that they didn't before. That doesn't make as much sense maybe for things that seem cosmetic. In reality though, the primary reasons I can think of for refusing custom options are 1) you are unsure of the quality of the resulting product and 2) it's too expensive or time consuming given the current production methods.

[belgian]

Healthy dialog is what keeps a forum going - this is a good topic, and one where I fully expect to see strong emotions on both sides of the fence.  Personally, I like what Hamer is doing now and have had no problems getting something done with the sole exception being one particular order.  Am I disappointed that I can't get my "Ultimate" guitar built by the company I choose to support?  Yeah, a little, but there's plenty of other choices and I also take a broader view of the situation.  I would prefer to see a company that is around in 10-20 + more years because they have strategically planned a thoughtful course going forward rather than resting on their laurels. 

Many of us here would like to see a return of various models from Hamer's past - FBs, Virts, Calis, you name it...  The reality is that when a company is trying to establish a niche in a competitive marketplace, they need to have a focus and a planned direction. 

Their customer base does not begin and end with the HFC, believe it or not.  Sure, members here place a lot of cool custom orders and bag a lot of cool new "off the rack" Hamers, but I think it is pretty arrogant to think that we drive the market for the company.

Does being told "NO" to doing that stuff keeping me from buying new Hamers?  Not at all - I think I get what they're going for and also remember that it isn't my name on the headstock. 

+ 1

If my English was better, I would have stated it in the same way !

After all, with a little delay,I got a proper answer from Hamer why they don't want to do it. I can live with that.

Personally I am not so happy the way this tread went....

[elduave]

Personally I am not so happy the way this tread went....

We know that's not your M.O. Conrad. The "healthy dialog" is a plus.

[Jack C]

Personally I am not so happy the way this tread went....

We know that's not your M.O. Conrad. The "healthy dialog" is a plus.

I'm actually shocked with how well it went. I just checked in and read the whole thing. How many HFC threads go 10 pages with no major flaming? Especially on a potentially divisive topic. I was pretty impressed.

[polara]

No flaming? Typical comment from you, you um...

...North Carolinian person, you! I Fairt een you gen-ay-rehl die-rection!

There.

[Jack C]

No flaming? Typical comment from you, you um...

...North Carolinian person, you! I Fairt een you gen-ay-rehl die-rection!

There.

I said no "major" flaming. Can't you read, you illiterate, North Carolina edjumacated, backwoods schmuck?!

[belgian]

No flaming? Typical comment from you, you um...

...North Carolinian person, you! I Fairt een you gen-ay-rehl die-rection!

There.

I said no "major" flaming. Can't you read, you illiterate, North Carolina edjumacated, backwoods schmuck?!

So now it starts...

As long as nobody is calling me a " .......fill in" Belgian, its OK for me.

Go ahead.., I am out for this tread.

[polara]

Yew no reedin's fer city folk, Charoltte boah! Ain't needin' no books hear in the mountains.

[jujisque]

Well Chris, obviously others believe those of us that don't play Hamers any longer shouldn't post pics so I can abide by that as it is the Hamer Fan Club here. I will say I never meant to offend anyone with my -- god forbid -- Les Paul and recent gig pictures.

I for one really enjoy seeing gig pictures whether they have a Hamer in them or not. I only own one Hamer (granted that's only because I'm poor), so my gig pics may only contain a few shots of a Hamer (if I gigged, haha).

Anyway, my point is that I belong to the school of thought that this forum is more useful to me as a community, a place to get basic soldering questions answered, and see some fabulous guitar porn rather than a place to get the latest news on Hamer guitars.

[cmatthes]

Good point - I agree that it's always nice to see a Hamer in a gig shot (it IS afterall a Hamer fan site), but guess what? Not all Hamer fans have a Hamer...yet. I didn't back in the late '70s when I first fell under the spell, and didn't until '84. Love all, serve all...something like that! I play and appreciate many other brands of guitars, but just dig the Hamer stuff the most.

Of course, if you DO have pics of your Hamers, by all means, show 'em off!

[DavidE]

"I beleive Jol has openly admitted to being embarassed by Hamer's association with those types of guitars."

I don't think I heard "embarrased" ever, but who knows. They were the shit for the time. It's certainly not what he wants to do now. The guitars have evolved, matured, aged, become more classic. Like most of us.

"Those types of guitars" were perfect for their time.

And I don't think Kim or Frank O are employees of Hamer. Not sure about Frank R.

[SouthernShred]

but guess what? Not all Hamer fans have a Hamer...yet.

I don't currently own any Hamers but I have in the past and probably will again in the future. I pointed a good friend of mine to a 6 month old Hamer Studio Custom that was on The Gear Page last week. He received it and is thrilled with it. I checked it out through his Aiken Intruder and think they're building wonderful guitars with much higher attention to detail than Gibson, Fender, etc...

Maybe I'm easy in regard to my needs...I don't have too much out of the ordinary in terms of wants on a guitar that would justify a custom order. Would I like to spec out a guitar to my taste and order it? Sure! If Hamer turned me down, would I be pissed? Probably not...there are other builders and I can understand if it's something they don't want to do...turning it into a production model later on is another story, but in general, I'm pretty appreciative of the quality of instrument Hamer puts out and have no problem pointing my friends towards them.

[jisham]

On something that'll go into production like Phoenix's example above I can understand, but yeah, you can't argue about the fact it sucks to see a item request shot down only to see it appear later.

I'm not sure it would turn me off the whole brand as it has seemed to do some.

For me it was combination of things that turned me off to Hamer -- the custom order stuff I went through, the fact that they claimed there were no "dealer exclusives" then turned around a did a few, and the way a few friends' custom orders were handled poorly in their and my opinion.

But mostly I just like Les Pauls better.

[Guest Mike Lee]

Two years ago at the Open House in 2003 Jol said that for some time he really regretted many of the 80's guitars Hamer had built. He especially regretted the Miller Beer Hamers.

Then he was able to meet Peter Green, one of his heroes. When Peter Green found out Jol was the founder of Hamer, he said "Hey, it's the Miller Beer guitar guy!".

Jol took this as some sort of cosmic irony and came to peace with his past. However, he likened the continual requests to rehash the past as asking Porsche to remake a 1974 911 (or some such vintage). While it's a great car, and Porsche may rightfully be proud of it, it's not reasonable to ask for it to be built again. They've moved on with newer designs and are satisfied with the direction they are going.

Jol always viewed Hamer as a "modern vintage" company when it was founded, and he is happy that the company haa returned to those roots.

Badger Dave's financial analysis is something I have mentioned before, even to Kim Keller. IMO, Hamer USA simply can't make a profit without a lot of creative accounting. I think the imports generate the profits so the USA operation can survive.