Hamer Guitars USA might be coming back soon.

[zorrow]

And BTW, @kizanski, Dean did produce a whole lot of mid-level USA-made guitars which were more than decent.

I do understand the elitist fan of the Hamer brand might not be interested in a Hamer USA resurrection that will denature (to their eyes) the brand's legacy, but I doubt those fans are representative of the mass who would buy the "new" Hamer USA brand. It's all about marketing and targeting the right audience. Frankly, I do think there's a market out there for mid-level American-made guitars --Gibson and Dean come to mind.

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

14 minutes ago, kizanski said:

Yes, many of you, but that's what I was getting at when I asked "How many of you who started with the imports bought or ordered a brand new USA Hamer?"
Not many people in this thread who have custom ordered a new USA Hamer, or bought a brand new USA Hamer off of a guitar shop wall are looking for Hamer USA to return.
Because we know that the USA models they were selling lost money for the parent company, and the concept of a "$1,500 USA Hamer is a complete pipe dream.
Even if they did make one, why would anyone - especially a fan of the defunct company - want one?

This whole thread is nothing more than a mic drop for the OP. A masturbatory exercise in futility. Not that I'm opposed to this sort of thing, mind you, but let's get real for fuck's sake.

So it's impossible to make money putting out good guitars made in the US selling at prices from $800 to $1500?

I can think of a half-dozen miracles, then.  At least.

[kizanski]

Just now, zorrow said:

And BTW, @kizanski, Dean did produce a whole lot of mid-level USA-made guitars which were more than decent.

I do understand the elitist fan of the Hamer brand might not be interested in a Hamer USA resurrection that will denature (to their eyes) the brand's legacy, but I doubt those fans are representative of the mass who would buy the "new" Hamer USA brand. It's all about marketing and targeting the right audience. Frankly, I do think there's a market out there for mid-level American-made guitars --Gibson and Dean come to mind.

They can do whatever they want with the brand and/or the name. They own it. It's their prerogative.
They can make shit-shaped guitars with boomers and Sustainers and sell a million of them. It won't have any impact on my life - not for a minute. My "eyes" will simply look elsewhere. There are a plethora of used, high quality USA Hamers for sale on the used market from which I can choose.

And Deans are shit.

 

2 minutes ago, Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame said:

So it's impossible to make money putting out good guitars made in the US selling at prices from $800 to $1500?

I can think of a half-dozen miracles, then.  At least.

The "pipe dream" I referred to was a $1,500 USA Hamer that resembles any of the quality which the brand formerly created.
That's simply not happening.
You are, of course, welcome to keep dreaming. Dreaming is free. Finely crafted guitars are not. They actually cost a lot more than $1,500.

[Never2Late]

2 hours ago, jisham said:

Ha, the "real" Hamer USA couldn't survive so I see no reason a resurrected Hamer USA in-name-only could even begin to compete in today's market, especially if they're starting with an import line for a demographic that's beyond saturated with sub-$1000 guitars.  Hamer is dead and should stay that way IMO.

I recall ESP and Ibanez starting 'pure-import'.  Then, when hair-metal was the rage and all the 'big name artists' were buying their stuff but demanding customization, then came the ESP and Ibanez USA Custom shops.  First, you have to cultivate the market need, then it gets investment and then it happens.  If 3,000 screaming guitar fans, cash-in-hand, started banging on some corporate office-door demanding USA-made custom stuff, trust me - it would get made/sold. 

This discussion seems to have a disconnect between Hamer's "build-to-order" mentality and see-it-on-the-shelf market presence.  When I got into Hamers, there was NO 'standard model' USA product that dealers could just order and stock on their shelves for customers to try-out and tinker with like they do at Guitar Center all day.  BCR Greg couldn't buy a bunch of models and hang them on his wall - a Hamer was a "we'll build it YOUR way, within reason" operation where the customer was responsible for all color/finish/woods/appointments decisions.  Having no 'stock' models made it difficult for dealers to obtain Hamer customers.  Wilcutt, apparently, spent some time obtaining a 'best-guess' inventory of models that took them forever to unload on ebay when Hamer's last gasp occurred - as a vendor, how much money did they lose on that strategy?  I'm still amazed at what Hamer 'could' do, if-asked, when top-woods and finishes were discussed, but asking someone to properly document/catalog customization ideas is a tall order.

[zorrow]

2 minutes ago, kizanski said:

And Deans are shit.

But shit can be eaten. So many millions of flies can't be wrong.  

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

1 minute ago, kizanski said:

They can do whatever they want with the brand and/or the name. They own it. It's their prerogative.
They can make shit-shaped guitars with boomers and Sustainers and sell a million of them. It won't have any impact on my life - not for a minute. My "eyes" will simply look elsewhere. There are a plethora of used, high quality USA Hamers for sale on the used market from which I can choose.

And Deans are shit.

 

The "pipe dream" I referred to was a $1,500 USA Hamer that resembles any of the quality which the brand formerly created.
That's simply not happening.
You are, of course, welcome to keep dreaming. Dreaming is free. Finely crafted guitars are not. They actually cost a lot more than $1,500.

Only if you are insisting on the Custom shop Hamers.  I'm not.

There is no reason they couldn't make a new Centaura just as good as the old ones for under $1500.  Adjusted for inflation, cheaper than the original price, yes, but technology has helped lower construction costs, too.

Or do you think G&L quality is *that* far below the Hamer superstrat era?  I don't.

[geowolves]

19 minutes ago, zorrow said:

And BTW, @kizanski, Dean did produce a whole lot of mid-level USA-made guitars which were more than decent.

I do understand the elitist fan of the Hamer brand might not be interested in a Hamer USA resurrection that will denature (to their eyes) the brand's legacy, but I doubt those fans are representative of the mass who would buy the "new" Hamer USA brand. It's all about marketing and targeting the right audience. Frankly, I do think there's a market out there for mid-level American-made guitars --Gibson and Dean come to mind.

Owning both the XT Special Junior and the USA Korina Special Junior you get a hell of a bang for your buck for $599 on the new import XT Junior. I can't vouch for what the quality of what will be for sale but my import Junior sounds great unplugged and great plugged in. Is it on the level as the USA, of course not but for what my cheap ass paid for it since at the time a Korina Junior was never available when I could pull the trigger on one and thinking I would sell the XT after getting the Korina Junior, it hasn't happened yet! And it could be upgraded with electronics and a pickup and more than a number of people would be happy owning one. 

[Disturber]

So funny that it took 11 pages and 7 days until this thread received a "Hot topic" sticker. 

[kizanski]

14 minutes ago, Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame said:

Only if you are insisting on the Custom shop Hamers.  I'm not.

There is no reason they couldn't make a new Centaura just as good as the old ones for under $1500.  Adjusted for inflation, cheaper than the original price, yes, but technology has helped lower construction costs, too.

Or do you think G&L quality is *that* far below the Hamer superstrat era?  I don't.

That's my point: (and I don't care if this sounds "elitist") Those of us who have custom ordered new Hamers (several times) are not showing any interest in this fantasy.
Many of us have moved on to other brands, focused our attention on Mike Shishkov (the man who's hands were making those Hamers), or will be perfectly happy cherry-picking from the Used pile.

I can't speak to G&L quality, especially as compared to the Centaura, as I was never interested in either.

13 minutes ago, geowolves said:

Owning both the XT Special Junior and the USA Korina Special Junior you get a hell of a bang for your buck for $599 on the new import XT Junior. I can't vouch for what the quality of what will be for sale but my import Junior sounds great unplugged and great plugged in. Is it on the level as the USA, of course not but for what my cheap ass paid for it since at the time a Korina Junior was never available when I could pull the trigger on one and thinking I would sell the XT after getting the Korina Junior, it hasn't happened yet! And it could be upgraded with electronics and a pickup and more than a number of people would be happy owning one. 

That's great. It's no reason to attempt to resurrect this dead horse, however.

[cmatthes]

Who here would pay $1,500 for an off the rack, USA made Centaura?

Bueller?

 

i didn't think so.

[Never2Late]

Just now, cmatthes said:

Who here would pay $1,500 for an off the rack, USA made Centaura?

Bueller?

 

i didn't think so.

Considering the amount of money I'm currently sinking into my own 'custom' Centaura build, $1,500 is cheap to me.....

[cmatthes]

When there are Arlington Heights built Centauras available 7 days a week, 365 days a year for well under $1,000?

🤔

[MCChris]

The Hamer/G&L comparison is a good one because in both cases, their value on the resale market means you'd be crazy to buy a new one unless you absolutely needed a particular feature set.

Frankly, I'm not sure how G&L stays in business either.

[kizanski]

1 minute ago, MCChris said:

The Hamer/G&L comparison is a good one because in both cases, their value on the resale market means you'd be crazy to buy a new one unless you absolutely needed a particular feature set.

No, you don't understand!  THIS ONE I'm going to KEEP!

[Never2Late]

4 minutes ago, cmatthes said:

When there are Arlington Heights built Centauras available 7 days a week, 365 days a year for well under $1,000?

🤔

Oh, I bought one of those - then I decided I wanted it done "my way", and the customization started....and we ain't done yet!

[cmatthes]

5 minutes ago, MCChris said:

The Hamer/G&L comparison is a good one because in both cases, their value on the resale market means you'd be crazy to buy a new one unless you absolutely needed a particular feature set.

Frankly, I'm not sure how G&L stays in business either.

It's all volume, Chris.  VOLUME!

[geowolves]

4 hours ago, kizanski said:

That's my point: (and I don't care if this sounds "elitist") Those of us who have custom ordered new Hamers (several times) are not showing any interest in this fantasy.
Many of us have moved on to other brands, focused our attention on Mike Shishkov (the man who's hands were making those Hamers), or will be perfectly happy cherry-picking from the Used pile.

I can't speak to G&L quality, especially as compared to the Centaura, as I was never interested in either.

That's great. It's no reason to attempt to resurrect this dead horse, however.

I get that as there are used that pop up $350 for the XT Junior, Monaco's, SATF'S, so I agree resurrection of imports is not necessary. But like both of us has said a Shishkov will get you the quality of the old USA Hamers and pickups that Josh can make sound like whatever they sound like in your dreams, not a mass produced one size fits all pickup. Like the Studio for sale I previously posted there are many including the beat to shit, looking, cool as hell, well worn, perfect Blitz that went for under $200 that some lucky SOB, and I say that lovingly, got off eBay! As for why company's go tits up, sometimes maybe they get too full of themselves. I was late to the Hamer brand even though a friend was scooping them up from Russo's in Hamilton, NJ left and right making me aware of the brand wishing I could buy one. Sometimes life dictates what you can and can't do as for what we want but don't really need. 

[JohnnyB]

9 minutes ago, cmatthes said:

It's all volume, Chris.  VOLUME!

I'm just guessing based on the fact that G&L is still here, but in their case, maybe G&L has made their import Tribute series help them stay in business without cheapening the reputation of the USA models. G&L introduced the Tributes almost 14 years ago. Although some parts are sourced from Asia and some of the woods are different, they use the G&L USA pickups and duplicate the G&L hardware (e.g., Saddle-Lock bridge) in Asia. The point is, Tributes are not junk and probably create a more favorable impression than many other imports branded and distributed by USA companies. At a list price range of about $450 to $750, which would up the volume considerably. Another indicator of sutatinable growth and success is that their product lines (both USA and Tribute) have expanded over time.

One other factor may be that G&Ls are all boltneck, all guitars are 25.5" scale and basses are 34", so they have some simplicity of manufacture and economy of scale working for them.

[KH Guitar Freak]

1 hour ago, JohnnyB said:

I'm just guessing based on the fact that G&L is still here, but in their case, maybe G&L has made their import Tribute series help them stay in business without cheapening the reputation of the USA models. G&L introduced the Tributes almost 14 years ago. Although some parts are sourced from Asia and some of the woods are different, they use the G&L USA pickups and duplicate the G&L hardware (e.g., Saddle-Lock bridge) in Asia. The point is, Tributes are not junk and probably create a more favorable impression than many other imports branded and distributed by USA companies. At a list price range of about $450 to $750, which would up the volume considerably. Another indicator of sutatinable growth and success is that their product lines (both USA and Tribute) have expanded over time.

One other factor may be that G&Ls are all boltneck, all guitars are 25.5" scale and basses are 34", so they have some simplicity of manufacture and economy of scale working for them.

One thing important to note is that G&L isn't all that obscure. It has the association with the late great Fender himself. Also, I think another big part is that their designs are still very Fender-like, hence the appeal. They have almost mostly stuck with traditional shapes and styling. With Hamer, I think there are some confusion between the 80s and 90s shredder models, the more traditional Fender like designed guitars in the 90s, and then a total reversion to the original classic Hamers in the 2000s. Many people don't realise that

[cmatthes]

Identity crises don't help...

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

1 hour ago, cmatthes said:

Who here would pay $1,500 for an off the rack, USA made Centaura?

Bueller?

 

i didn't think so.

I would. Depending on some of the attributes.

Add stainless steel frets to the maple-board tobacco sunburst Cent that carfish7 and I trade back and forth, and yes: take my money.

There's no reason that guitar couldn't be made exactly the same and sold at a profit for $1500.

A Diablo with ss frets for $900? In a heartbeat.  Add a few higher-end appointments like an ebony fretboard and figured top (which aren't that expensive to the maker) and I'd go up to $1200 or maybe even $1500.

But that's the thing: there are some things that are unique about the old 80s era Hamers that Hamer wasn't doing in the last 10 years of their existence that you still can't find regularly on other guitars.  Good solid craftsmanship, solid parts.  That doesn't depend on bling, exotic woods, or 57 layers of handrubbed finish...just skilled builders with crew chiefs/managers that set, enforce, and maintain high standards.

Maintaining that consistency isn't automatic, but if you put out quality guitars in volume with those unique Hamer characteristics, the Hamer name could be enough to separate it from the pack. 

Maybe not, but it isn't a sure-fire automatic failure, either.  The point is that Hamer didn't start out as Guitar Maker to the Dentists, and when they switched to it, they failed. Hamer started out as providing guitars at the same price as Fender and Gibson, but better quality and some innovative design characteristics, right?  That market is tighter than it was in the 70s, thanks to EBMM, Carvin, G&L, PRS, etc, but it isn't necessarily closed, either. Not as long as Gibson and Fender keep chugging along putting out inconsistent product at those prices.

[sonic1974]

There's a lot of really cool used Hamers that come up for sale at good prices. Any new USA Hamer would have too much competition from what's already out there. 

[kizanski]

2 minutes ago, Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame said:

The point is that Hamer didn't start out as Guitar Maker to the Dentists, and when they switched to it, they failed.

No, they failed a long time before that because (as has been stated here ad nauseum) they were piss-poor at marketing the brand.
The fallout from something like this takes years to see, but it's often too late when you do.
THEN they became "Guitar Makers to the Dentists" and it just got worse.

[sonic1974]

10 minutes ago, Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame said:

I would. Depending on some of the attributes.

Add stainless steel frets to the maple-board tobacco sunburst Cent that carfish7 and I trade back and forth, and yes: take my money.

There's no reason that guitar couldn't be made exactly the same and sold at a profit for $1500.

A Diablo with ss frets for $900? In a heartbeat.  Add a few higher-end appointments like an ebony fretboard and figured top (which aren't that expensive to the maker) and I'd go up to $1200 or maybe even $1500.

But that's the thing: there are some things that are unique about the old 80s era Hamers that Hamer wasn't doing in the last 10 years of their existence that you still can't find regularly on other guitars.  Good solid craftsmanship, solid parts.  That doesn't depend on bling, exotic woods, or 57 layers of handrubbed finish...just skilled builders with crew chiefs/managers that set, enforce, and maintain high standards.

Maintaining that consistency isn't automatic, but if you put out quality guitars in volume with those unique Hamer characteristics, the Hamer name could be enough to separate it from the pack. 

Maybe not, but it isn't a sure-fire automatic failure, either.  The point is that Hamer didn't start out as Guitar Maker to the Dentists, and when they switched to it, they failed. Hamer started out as providing guitars at the same price as Fender and Gibson, but better quality and some innovative design characteristics, right?  That market is tighter than it was in the 70s, thanks to EBMM, Carvin, G&L, PRS, etc, but it isn't necessarily closed, either. Not as long as Gibson and Fender keep chugging along putting out inconsistent product at those prices.

But when they started, Hamers were more expensive than Gibsons, so your premise is a bit off there. 

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

2 minutes ago, sonic1974 said:

There's a lot of really cool used Hamers that come up for sale at good prices. Any new USA Hamer would have too much competition from what's already out there. 

But sometimes there's nothing like a new one.  Show me where I can get a used Californian with LEDs?  They're hard to find at any price.  Make a production Californian set neck with LEDs, I think you could sell it at $1800 and still make a profit.  I'd pay $1800 for a brand new one in candy apple with an ebony fretboard.