JohnnyB Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, MCChris said: How does a presence at NAMM imply USA? Lots of import-only brands hawk their wares there, no? Exactly. Seems like a JAM rep may have misspoken or somebody else jumped to a conclusion. I can see why the OP hasn't weighed in; only 362 replies have accumulated in nine days. No need for elaboration or clarification. We're doing just fine making up our own shit.
Armitage Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 I think some people are still way off base what a new Hamer would cost. Remember Shiskov had a super special sale price and it wasn't marked up by a distributor or store front dealer.
Never2Late Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 3 hours ago, KH Guitar Freak said: I don't get the point in terms of a NAMM context... Huh? Most of the Indie Shops I spend my money in send folks to NAMM to decide what to stock and put on their store shelves.
Never2Late Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Armitage said: I think some people are still way off base what a new Hamer would cost. Remember Shiskov had a super special sale price and it wasn't marked up by a distributor or store front dealer. Roxy Guitars still has a few NOS instruments in-stock, and they're trying to blow them out the door at the bargain-basement price of $3,500 each. There's no illusion here. That's what an OLD Hamer costs today, and I think everyone knows and understands where that $3,500 figure comes from. That number probably has ZERO distributor or corporate mark-up. If people are talking about a $1,500 price-point for a USA-made product, they're clearly talking about a guitar whose neck and body are made from a computerized CNC machine using cheap wood, slapped together assembly-line style, and spray-painted a thick, solid color before getting some cheap parts bolted-on, thrown in a box, and shipped. Is this the FenderFanClub?
Caddie Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 On 11/01/2017 at 11:53 AM, RobB said: It's aliiiiiiiive!!! It's aliiiiiiiiiive! On 11/01/2017 at 0:33 PM, kizanski said: No. It isn't. kiz, why must you pee in the punch bowl? why my friend? why? ok so you didn't get to roll in the hay with the babes in the ZZ Top vids. enjoy the wet dream while it lasts. now quick, strip the bed and get it in the washing machine before mom wakes up. Cheers my brother! caddie
mc2 Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 What would be a clever relaunch....... Do the hi-grade imports at the lower price point and then offering "Lifetime Warranty on ALL EXISTING USA Hamers" with a tag line like, "Because they are THAT good!!" ....and then offering to "refin or update your old Hamer USA for $500"....for a basic refin or repair...more to factory hotrod it. THAT would get a buzz going. .....then run teaser ads and unveil a USA line at next year's NAMM after figuring out what the market wants.
bubs_42 Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 This thread is like the fucking telephone game being played by Larry Moe and Curly on crack. The thread died on page one.
RobB Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 Imagine if the "new" HamerUSA gets launched. Think they're gonna want to work with the HFC after threads like this one? Will the HFC splinter into warring factions? "The Original HFC?" "The 'New' Original HFC?"
Caddie Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 On 18/01/2017 at 2:09 PM, LucSulla said: This is one qualified buyer's perspective. I guess I'll write a lot again. Like much of the other generational detritus of the boomer generation, guitars are one of those things where there are a lot more of them out there than people interested, a phenomenon that is only going to deepen barring something happening to make some genre of electric-guitar-based music as popular as Adele and staying that popular for a decade. I think Gen X bled that pig dry though, to be honest. The rock music we were creating and marketing from 1997 to 2002 or so, as we were reaching an age where we too were becoming irrelevant to popular culture, Papa Roach and Nickelback for instance, makes any of the low points in 70s rock look positively brilliant. Unlike all of us older folks who always had some awesome rock out there somewhere in a relatively mainstream way, by the time older Millennials were in grade school, there was pretty much NO good, loud-ass rock out there. If I'd grown up thinking Theory of Deadman and Puddle of Mudd were what rock music was all about, I'd think guitars were lame too. That's not to say no one will want to play guitar in a band in the future, but it's never going to be like 1955, 1964, 1967, 1977, 1986, or 1992 again. Another big year that had nothing to do with music but everything to do with the market is 2008, the year that Baby Boomers (and older Gen Xers - my generation was actually hit the worst financially) learned that guitars are a really, really shitty investment strategy. I know the high end vintage market has never recovered, and there is plenty of evidence that the high-end new guitar market - the "lawyer guitar" - has gone to hell as well. It's not an accident that, after basically owning only two guitars for almost 20 years, I got into buying guitars in 2013. I myself finally had a little money by then, the Internet made finding most anything easy and efficient, and the used market was great. And it's only gotten better really. If you're patient, the American-made guitars you can find under a grand are ridiculous. And while some things, say Gibson Explorers, have crept up a little as of late, other things, G&L Bluesboys, are cheaper than ever. It's a buyer's market. It would take something special for me to buy a guitar with no resale value new ever again. Even used - There are two GJ2s on this board, one of which is mine, that would have been sold weeks ago at their current prices if they just said "Jackson" or "Charvel" on the headstock. It doesn't matter that they are every bit the guitars of those brands and even have the DNA thing, the broader guitar world is just not all that interested. If I had bought this thing new... oh my! I would have gotten my face kicked in! Conversely, I just bought a 2009 Gibson SG for very reasonable money. And here's the truth about Gibson - I can't remember the last time I played one so bad that I wouldn't be able to sell it with a clear conscience. Hell, to be honest, it's been a long time since I played one that really sucked. I've played some that were a little rough around the edges, and that might have been an issue if I was considering it new, but used, in good shape, with "Gibson" on the headstock, and with only $600-$900 in the instrument? Unless you needed to get liquid tomorrow, you'll get most, if not all, of your money back out of that if you want to sell it. The Gibson's I've bought in the past two years - a 2013 LP Trad, a 2013 Firebird, and a 2011 Flying V Trad - are actually what broke me of Heritage (sorry, Chris). They're all just better guitars save maybe the 535 I owned. We can bitch about Gibby all we want, but the fact is that there is already an enormous supply of solid, set neck, 24.75 scale, American-made guitars out there for very reasonable money. Go on Reverb or eBay and search for "Gibson." While I do think that there is truth to the "never buy a Gibson before you play it" cliché, I also think that keeping that sentiment alive is a very useful tool for guitar builders that compete with them. If I'm Hamer saying that in 1976 in an era of pancake bodies and three-piece tops, you bet! But if I'm PRS trying to convince a kid that really loves Slash and Jimmy Page that he or she should really buy my version of a single cut instead... Useful tool. And that's all before we get into the "deep cuts" like Hamer and, on the Fender side of the house, G&L. This is why I wouldn't particularly be interested in a new American guitar company that made reasonably priced instruments. I can already buy all kinds of quality used stuff, even boo-teekish stuff like G&L and GJ2 that can be found virtually new but after some other consumer has absorbed the initial depreciation. Even straight-up boutique builds like Talladegas and Artists are out there. So why did I buy a Shishkov? Well, I love Hamers, I wanted a custom build, and I sort of have the money, haha. Mike is also making these things for a ridiculously reasonable price. I'd hate to think what a similar build, built to my specs, by PRS would cost. This is probably a once-in-a-lifetime purchase for me, which makes me worry less about what the guitar will be worth on the open market. Even if it doesn't end up my number one, I'd have to be in dire financial straights to sell it. Every other guitar I own, I bought to use. Sure, aesthetics and build quality factor in, but they are for playing. This one is for playing as well, but the main reason I bought it is that I wanted to own one guitar that was as much about the art of working with wood to create a beautiful, musical instrument as it is about banging out Red House at an open mic night jam. The guys at Hamer were masters, and if you love guitars as art, here's a chance to snag a Degas. You even get to pick the theme of the painting! Unique set of circumstances, no? How does this play into not just restarting Hamer, but any US guitar brand? If I want a good, American made guitar, there are already more out there than I can sort through in one lifetime. If I want some security in being able to sell something if I don't like it, there is a wealth of guitars that either have solid branding OR have already been depreciated enough that it isn't a huge financial risk if I decided that I needed to move it on down the line. If it is all about the art of the guitar and no other consideration, that already exists too. Hamer is an interesting study because so many people knew - like literally knew - the guys making these guitars and were far more loyal to those builders than the name on the headstock, which is a bit rare. Mike had to spend pretty much no time convincing the serious Hamer nuts that his guitars would be steeped in the tradition of Hamer because we already knew if he was building them that they had to be. He came out with a ripping deal for the Ultimates, and by all accounts, those builds exceeded expectation. Then he starts offering his own designs that look equally as drool-worthy at a very competitive price, at least in my opinion. The Classic Hamer Lover market is not a big market, I'd imagine. It's probably just big enough to give one guy with a small shop a good shot at having a solid start to his own company. It was a cool opportunity because, as it turns out, we never were brand-loyal. We were builder loyal. Mike got there first and is currently serving the shit out of that market. And hopefully, we'll give him enough business to sustain him while he builds a name outside of the Hamer geeks. So given all of this contained in this overly long tribute to my ability to ramble with only limited coherence - who is the market for any US made guitar that is not already being served? Is it actually big enough to support people building instruments for it full time? Luc, 1 word, Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (CTS). ok, ok, ok so its 3 words. Note to the pinheads in the audience. Stop yer whining about the pinhead size indentations in the finish that's juuuuuust below the mini toggle on your new/used Duotone. 'sniffle, sniffle but it was advertised as mint' just sit down, shut up, eat yer vegetables and play yer guitar. Now back to my pointy, pinhead question. Luc very well stated, but didn't bangin' out that message make your CTS act up? Cheers! caddie
diablo175 Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 15 minutes ago, bubs_42 said: This thread is like the fucking telephone game being played by Larry Moe and Curly on crack. The thread died on page one. And yet, like a slow motion train wreck, we can't break away... ...reminds me of a FB post by a skydiving buddy who was heading back to the UK and as she sat in the airport waiting for her flight, a news brief came on detailing a suspect chase on some freeway. Naturally, numerous stations started covering it with the expectation of something climactic and sensational happening. More and more waiting airline passengers started watching, waiting for some exciting development, hoping to catch some dramatic event. Nothing. Her last post was something to the effect of: DAMMIT! Had to go to the bathroom and when I came back it was over; they were taking someone away in 'cuffs, without incident.
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame Posted January 19, 2017 Posted January 19, 2017 2 hours ago, Armitage said: I think some people are still way off base what a new Hamer would cost. Remember Shiskov had a super special sale price and it wasn't marked up by a distributor or store front dealer. There's a difference between charging as much as the market will bear and charging as little as you can get away with without actually losing money. Mike's super special sale was an introductory low price to keep his family fed and let people pay him to show what he could do. But I sincerely doubt he lost money on materials and worked for free the whole time. I'd be shocked if he didn't get all his material cost back *and* made enough to maintain a slightly-belt-tightened life. A new Hamer would be charging as little as they could without losing money. Also, those of us assuming a lower price are also assuming a Hamer rebirth would be centered around a production line and economies of scale, not a labor-intensive, made-to-order shop, where the price would have to be much higher to sustain salaries and support structure based on the profits of low volume sales. If you're right and they go with yet another Custom Order Boutique shop, then yes: it will be expensive and nobody posting here will have any interest whatsoever. But if I (and a few of the others) are correct in assuming the Arlington Heights-style production guitar with a few traditional Hamer appointments, then there is no reason it would have to be stratospherically priced. The more I think about this, the more I think if it happens, it will be import semi-finished parts to keep the prices low, assembled, finished, and tweaked in the US by a few skilled artisans so they can maximize their impact and claim the "US" label, and including enough of the traditional Hamer touches (like the boomers on ebony, the Triple Bucker Phantom/Prototype, the double-cutaway LP shape, the inset input jack on the butt of superstratst, etc) to attract some old Hamer fans and still set them apart from the high-quality imports from Ibanez, Yamaha, Schecter, etc. Or it may never happen. It's all the same to me, at this point.
cynic Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 I hope they make a run of wraptail SG Specials.
cmatthes Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, RobB said: Imagine if the "new" HamerUSA gets launched. Think they're gonna want to work with the HFC after threads like this one? Will the HFC splinter into warring factions? "The Original HFC?" "The 'New' Original HFC?" Rob - you DO remember some of the shitstorms when Hamer WAS still a thing, right?
RobB Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, cmatthes said: Rob - you DO remember some of the shitstorms when Hamer WAS still a thing, right? Sure I do. Just projecting some message board theory, is all. I didn't mean any harm, sir.
hamerhead Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, bubs_42 said: This thread is like the fucking telephone game being played by Larry Moe and Curly on crack..... That's one of the funniest things I've ever read.
LucSulla Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Caddie said: Luc, 1 word, Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (CTS). ok, ok, ok so its 3 words. Note to the pinheads in the audience. Stop yer whining about the pinhead size indentations in the finish that's juuuuuust below the mini toggle on your new/used Duotone. 'sniffle, sniffle but it was advertised as mint' just sit down, shut up, eat yer vegetables and play yer guitar. Now back to my pointy, pinhead question. Luc very well stated, but didn't bangin' out that message make your CTS act up? Cheers! caddie Nope! After you've written a couple of 100+ and 200+ page manuscripts, 1500 words might as well be writing a grocery list. It's all about the posture!
Biz Prof Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, RobB said: Will the HFC splinter into warring factions? "The Original HFC?" "The 'New' Original HFC?" Nah. The HFC will simply morph into The Thamesmen 😆
Studio Custom Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 3 hours ago, JohnnyB said: Exactly. Seems like a JAM rep may have misspoken or somebody else jumped to a conclusion. I can see why the OP hasn't weighed in; only 362 replies have accumulated in nine days. No need for elaboration or clarification. We're doing just fine making up our own shit. Or the entire topic was bullshit to start (remember my steer rectum comment, or warning about the source).
cynic Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, LucSulla said: It's all about the posture! Weight and relaxation!
Cary Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Can I raise a practical question at this point? Are we going to do Stonehenge tomorrow?
BTMN Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Right after Big Bottom on my new 12 string Hamer Bass. Oh wait......
BTMN Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 This one has a 4 piece body but if it sounded sweet enough and was priced right I might have a hard time not buying one.
Biz Prof Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 34 minutes ago, Cary said: Can I raise a practical question at this point? Are we going to do Stonehenge tomorrow? If Nigel had strapped on a 4-digit Standard instead of an Explorer in that scene, it would have really added some perspective to this whole thread.... ...Too much f'ing perspective, as David St. Hubbins would say.
tbonesullivan Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 3 hours ago, Never2Late said: Roxy Guitars still has a few NOS instruments in-stock, and they're trying to blow them out the door at the bargain-basement price of $3,500 each. There's no illusion here. That's what an OLD Hamer costs today, and I think everyone knows and understands where that $3,500 figure comes from. That number probably has ZERO distributor or corporate mark-up. If people are talking about a $1,500 price-point for a USA-made product, they're clearly talking about a guitar whose neck and body are made from a computerized CNC machine using cheap wood, slapped together assembly-line style, and spray-painted a thick, solid color before getting some cheap parts bolted-on, thrown in a box, and shipped. Is this the FenderFanClub? It was my understanding that Hamer used CNC machines at the New Hartford plant. Is this not correct? I mean PRS uses them on their USA lines and I don't see people having issues coughing up the prices they command. Also, seeing as many EBMM and G&L guitars are USA made and at that price point, I guess you are also talking about them?
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.