veatch Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 $599 at Sweetwater: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SPJNTU 45 minutes ago, BTMN said: This one has a 4 piece body but if it sounded sweet enough and was priced right I might have a hard time not buying one.
zenmindbeginner Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Jay Turser and Oscar Schmidt I'm just going to leave that here and go puke in the toilet. Gosh... really great thread guys.
cmatthes Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 I don't think some people here understand the value of CNC machines in guitar production, nor even how things work. It's not like you toss a slab/billet in there and a perfectly machine-crafted guitar comes out. It takes away hours of labor, and adds a level of consistency and precision that is crucial for any expanded production operations. CNC machines are NOT a bad thing - in fact, quite the opposite. Most all higher end guitar companies use them and have for many years. From the comments here and elsewhere, it's clear that people have bought into the uninformed myth (or Ed Roman bullshit) that Using CNC machines somehow makes an inferior or less "handmade" instrument. There is still a ton of handwork and final shaping (hours) to get things to the next step. Do yourself a favor sometime and take a tour of a guitar maker's shop. Whether it's Kauer, Huber, Stevens, PRS, whoever, they all spend an incredible amount of time and skilled handwork on their guitars post-CNC. Watch how they do it, and you'll more than likely be convinced of how much better those tools can make the process. It's just a tool, like a pin router or duplicarver, but for some weird reason, nobody gets all bent out of shape over builders who use those.
Boomerang~Junkie Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, cmatthes said: I don't think some people here understand the value of CNC machines in guitar production, nor even how things work. It's not like you toss a slab/billet in there and a perfectly machine-crafted guitar comes out. It takes away hours of labor, and adds a level of consistency and precision that is crucial for any expanded production operations. CNC machines are NOT a bad thing - in fact, quite the opposite. Most all higher end guitar companies use them and have for many years. From the comments here and elsewhere, it's clear that people have bought into the uninformed myth (or Ed Roman bullshit) that Using CNC machines somehow makes an inferior or less "handmade" instrument. There is still a ton of handwork and final shaping (hours) to get things to the next step. Do yourself a favor sometime and take a tour of a guitar maker's shop. Whether it's Kauer, Huber, Stevens, PRS, whoever, they all spend an incredible amount of time and skilled handwork on their guitars post-CNC. Watch how they do it, and you'll more than likely be convinced of how much better those tools can make the process. It's just a tool, like a pin router or duplicarver, but for some weird reason, nobody gets all bent out of shape over builders who use those. ^ ^ ^ THIS ^ ^ ^ First off, EBMM builds fantastic guitars. Dare I say on par with Hamer's builds. Yes, really. They have a few videos (YouTube I think?) of how some of their guitar bodies and necks are shaped using CNC and other automated processes and by using other precision woodworking machinery. It amazing how fast, accurate and cool that process is and just takes minutes - not several hours. Understand even though its not 100% automated, you still get probably 80% of your guitar "express-laned" (think Autobahn fast) right there by that process and several hours are saved buy using this precision equipment. Plus one person can set up, start and monitor a few CNC mills at the same time. Less time and less labor on that part of the build. The time and money they save there is what allows their great luthiers to push those hours that were "saved" over to hand finish that guitar and make it really bad ass. Chris is dead on - its about the only way they can afford to mass produce stuff that nice and still squeeze out a profit. At least I am not aware of another way. Just my nominally to half-ass educated opinion. EDITED TO ADD VIDEOS. The last video here is amazing.
alantig Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 7 hours ago, cmatthes said: I don't think some people here understand the value of CNC machines in guitar production, nor even how things work. It's not like you toss a slab/billet in there and a perfectly machine-crafted guitar comes out. It takes away hours of labor, and adds a level of consistency and precision that is crucial for any expanded production operations. CNC machines are NOT a bad thing - in fact, quite the opposite. Most all higher end guitar companies use them and have for many years. From the comments here and elsewhere, it's clear that people have bought into the uninformed myth (or Ed Roman bullshit) that Using CNC machines somehow makes an inferior or less "handmade" instrument. There is still a ton of handwork and final shaping (hours) to get things to the next step. Do yourself a favor sometime and take a tour of a guitar maker's shop. Whether it's Kauer, Huber, Stevens, PRS, whoever, they all spend an incredible amount of time and skilled handwork on their guitars post-CNC. Watch how they do it, and you'll more than likely be convinced of how much better those tools can make the process. It's just a tool, like a pin router or duplicarver, but for some weird reason, nobody gets all bent out of shape over builders who use those. This. Complaining about a builder using CNC is like complaining that they used a band saw - it doesn't turn out a finished product. The real art comes in the hand work afterwards.
zorrow Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 I got a (stupid?) question here: where's the relationship "new & apocryphal Hamer USA" and Washburn?
polara Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 9 hours ago, cmatthes said: I don't think some people here understand the value of CNC machines in guitar production, nor even how things work. It's not like you toss a slab/billet in there and a perfectly machine-crafted guitar comes out. It takes away hours of labor, and adds a level of consistency and precision that is crucial for any expanded production operations. CNC machines are NOT a bad thing - in fact, quite the opposite. Most all higher end guitar companies use them and have for many years. From the comments here and elsewhere, it's clear that people have bought into the uninformed myth (or Ed Roman bullshit) that Using CNC machines somehow makes an inferior or less "handmade" instrument. There is still a ton of handwork and final shaping (hours) to get things to the next step. Do yourself a favor sometime and take a tour of a guitar maker's shop. Whether it's Kauer, Huber, Stevens, PRS, whoever, they all spend an incredible amount of time and skilled handwork on their guitars post-CNC. Watch how they do it, and you'll more than likely be convinced of how much better those tools can make the process. It's just a tool, like a pin router or duplicarver, but for some weird reason, nobody gets all bent out of shape over builders who use those. Spot-on. I've been in some factories watching the machines and it's utterly amazing. It's just automating, with precision, the stuff that would take a highly-paid luthier hours to do but does not require that luthier's skills. So you're no longer paying your lawyer to mow the lawn, but instead letting that individual focus his or her skills where they really are needed. My '16 Les Paul Studio Faded is an example of what you can do with a CNC machine and a well-run assembly line… and the absolute minimum of skilled labor. The wood is cut and the thing glued together absolutely perfectly: neck angle, curves, fretboard, holes in the right place, etc. A PLEK machine speeds up the fret dressing process. Then the finish is a quick, primitive coat of notrocellulose lacquer with minimal handwork, and the frets are not particularly polished. Electronics plug in (solderless mostly) into a PCB. Screw the parts on, and you're done: a highly-competent US-made guitar that goes for $799 in any shop. All because of efficient use of resources and a well-run supply chain and distribution network. A USA Hamer COULD - I repeat COULD - sell flat-top, all-mahogany (the Hamer stressed neck is labor-intensive but a one-piece could work) P90 Speicals with a "faded" finish at that price point, if they could work the books to invest in the machinery needed and had the kind of terms with suppliers and dealers that Gibson has. But they would be just good USA guitars with a Hamer logo, not the Hamer we think of, and I think it's highly unlikely that anyone could get that kind of financial muscle lined up to go into a market that is saturated. It would have to be contracted out to some company that had spare production capacity, like the new Gretsch did with Tereda. Maybe Godin has the capacity. But I love the new Gretsches. Contract work could really be the answer, and I'd buy the shit out of a Tereda-built Hamer JPN. Theur standards are amazing and the prce point could be competitive.
BTMN Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Been to Hamer, been to the Dean USA shop a number of times. Seen some fine CNC making going on but the attention is in the details and the final work that goes in to making a guitar versus a beautiful instrument. Import Hamer / US Hamer. I'm waiting to see what hits the streets in a year or more or any plans made in that direction to decide if I will be a fan of the new boss same as the old boss. .
murkat Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 13 hours ago, BTMN said: This one has a 4 piece body chump changed compared to the old yet still coveted Ibanez Destroyers and Rocket Rolls. 5, 6 pieces of Japanese senn wood glued together to make one body billet. No denying the awesome tones of those. (EVH )
Caddie Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 13 hours ago, tbonesullivan said: It was my understanding that Hamer used CNC machines at the New Hartford plant. Is this not correct? I mean PRS uses them on their USA lines and I don't see people having issues coughing up the prices they command. Also, seeing as many EBMM and G&L guitars are USA made and at that price point, I guess you are also talking about them? CNC?! Oh good gawd Lovey, Surely that can't be! Indeed it is, (ok guys, go ahead on the one) and don't call me Shirley. Must be Yale men.
zorrow Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 56 minutes ago, gtrdaddy said: The answer to that will be in the upcoming thread "Hamer Guitars USA May NOT Be Coming Back Soon..." LMAO!!!
serial Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Even if they DID bring back USA production, they would be assuring a short-term existence unless they did some real market research by taking legitimate customers' pulses. Continuing the brand as it was with all of its historical material, designs, vision(aries) and adding all of the $$ to get to the starting line for a brand that hasn't exactly captured the guitar-buying public's attention seems absurd at best. Sure, you could build a decent guitar, but how many are you going to sell? Who is going to pay a premium for a USA Monaco Elite for example, when it looks just like the fooking import version from a few feet away down to the inlays?
DaveL Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 3 hours ago, polara said: Spot-on. I've been in some factories watching the machines and it's utterly amazing. It's just automating, with precision, the stuff that would take a highly-paid luthier hours to do but does not require that luthier's skills. So you're no longer paying your lawyer to mow the lawn, but instead letting that individual focus his or her skills where they really are needed. My '16 Les Paul Studio Faded is an example of what you can do with a CNC machine and a well-run assembly line… and the absolute minimum of skilled labor. The wood is cut and the thing glued together absolutely perfectly: neck angle, curves, fretboard, holes in the right place, etc. A PLEK machine speeds up the fret dressing process. Then the finish is a quick, primitive coat of notrocellulose lacquer with minimal handwork, and the frets are not particularly polished. Electronics plug in (solderless mostly) into a PCB. Screw the parts on, and you're done: a highly-competent US-made guitar that goes for $799 in any shop. All because of efficient use of resources and a well-run supply chain and distribution network. A USA Hamer COULD - I repeat COULD - sell flat-top, all-mahogany (the Hamer stressed neck is labor-intensive but a one-piece could work) P90 Speicals with a "faded" finish at that price point, if they could work the books to invest in the machinery needed and had the kind of terms with suppliers and dealers that Gibson has. But they would be just good USA guitars with a Hamer logo, not the Hamer we think of, and I think it's highly unlikely that anyone could get that kind of financial muscle lined up to go into a market that is saturated. It would have to be contracted out to some company that had spare production capacity, like the new Gretsch did with Tereda. Maybe Godin has the capacity. But I love the new Gretsches. Contract work could really be the answer, and I'd buy the shit out of a Tereda-built Hamer JPN. Theur standards are amazing and the prce point could be competitive. I agree... they could build a nice p-90 special with a faded finish... I never got the impression they wanted to.. part of it (IMHO) was a product positioning thing, kind of like how Fender doesn't do cool colors like sonic blue on their road worn series. I felt the 25th anniversary mahog, FM Special and P-90 special were all winners... still are. not sure why they couldn't look at other possible finishes. Charvel USA put out some nice satin finished guitars. (natural series a few years ago, and it looks like the new usa production stuff).
zorrow Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 22 minutes ago, serial said: Even if they DID bring back USA production, they would be assuring a short-term existence unless they did some real market research by taking legitimate customers' pulses. Continuing the brand as it was with all of its historical material, designs, vision(aries) and adding all of the $$ to get to the starting line for a brand that hasn't exactly captured the guitar-buying public's attention seems absurd at best. Sure, you could build a decent guitar, but how many are you going to sell? Who is going to pay a premium for a USA Monaco Elite for example, when it looks just like the fooking import version from a few feet away down to the inlays? This is were we diverge completely. As a parallel example, the same brand of cars which was making luxury cars in the past, can redefine itself and start building lower-priced cars. So, if they have the right to stick the Hamer USA logo on a headstock and build quality-but-also-lower-priced stuff which is appealing to the majority of us here, as well as to some new customers, they will score. In the following post I tried to make a point about this:
JimiH Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 @NAMM2017 http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/namm-2017-hamer-guitars-is-back-back-back-647353 🤔
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 2 hours ago, murkat said: chump changed compared to the old yet still coveted Ibanez Destroyers and Rocket Rolls. 5, 6 pieces of Japanese senn wood glued together to make one body billet. No denying the awesome tones of those. (EVH ) Strangely, one of the better sounding guitars I've owned was an MIK plywood guitar. One of the things I've found endlessly amusing is the idea that set neck guitars are better than bolt-on because the wood-to-wood-contact-via-thin-layer-of-glue is better for vibration transmission than screws, but a bread-board multi-piece wood body deadens vibrations because of the glued portions. I'm sure that is a slight distortion of the argument, but I've decided to kind of not take a side anymore, and just like or dislike a guitar based on that individual guitar. Sometimes I think there are just too many damn variables to identify where great tone really comes from, or maybe just that there are a few things that *guarantee* great tone, but there are a bunch of other (and cheaper) ways to get there, too...it just takes more trial and error, trying different cheaper guitars until you find the handful that sound best.
kizanski Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 18 minutes ago, zorrow said: You're playing fast and loose with the word "quality" when you're talking about a modern day production Fender.
gorch Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 54 minutes ago, serial said: Who is going to pay a premium for a USA Monaco Elite for example, when it looks just like the fooking import version from a few feet away down to the inlays? Believe me, many will do. Just like they do buy any other brand in the same price category.
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 52 minutes ago, serial said: Even if they DID bring back USA production, they would be assuring a short-term existence unless they did some real market research by taking legitimate customers' pulses. Continuing the brand as it was with all of its historical material, designs, vision(aries) and adding all of the $$ to get to the starting line for a brand that hasn't exactly captured the guitar-buying public's attention seems absurd at best. Sure, you could build a decent guitar, but how many are you going to sell? Who is going to pay a premium for a USA Monaco Elite for example, when it looks just like the fooking import version from a few feet away down to the inlays? Actually, this is a very good summation of my viewpoint. I just thought it was interesting to discuss would they *could* do to capture the guitar-buying public's attention without breaking the bank? What is the investor's group (or proposer) finding from their market research that leads them to believe they could find a profitable segment among all the myriad options currently out there? So I was thinking basically imitate exactly what G&L, EBMM, et al, were doing to control costs but ensure quality. Except we already have G&L and EBMM, and this is supposed to be *Hamer*, not just another mid-range quality guitar line. So my answer was: - demanding higher levels of care and attention to detail from the workers. It can be done. It is difficult to sustain, because humans are humans and get lazy, cut corners, etc., but that's where leadership comes in. - A few traditionally Hamer elements. And so to me, the interest was in trying to figure out which elements they could include that wouldn't break the bank. That's where I was thinking about the Diablo: there's nothing else out there like a Diablo. It is just damn special. I keep going back to them. And these were the budget-line of shredders. The flat fretboard, the tone, the balance, the slanted HB pickup, the color combinations. I just love them. So I'd pay a premium to get a brand new one, instead of just buying one used, inheriting all the problems inflicted by previous owners. And willing to pay even more if they added a few extra things, like SS frets, scalloping, ebony fretboard. The 24.5" scale double-cutaway of the Special isn't that easy to find, either. The Eclipse is an interesting case: those who own them, love them. Pretty easy to find them used. But maybe reproduce them with Lollars, and a wide range of candy metallic colors? Stealth shredders in the 24.75" scale... Or even the Prototype/Phantom. Not many of those out there, it would be somewhat unusual in the market, yet still pretty easy to make under strict cost control measures. Maybe that's difficult. Maybe that's unlikely. But it can't be *impossible*. But if they don't go this route, I do lose pretty much any/all interest.
cmatthes Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Consider your interest lost then, Nathan. None of that is ever going to happen.
Studio Custom Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 Rumor has it some of these builders claiming to build handmade guitars commute to work in automobiles! Heavens to Betsey it's scandolous I say!
Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, cmatthes said: Consider your interest lost then, Nathan. None of that is ever going to happen. [shrug] Well, it was fun talking about. I have a Vintage S on the way, a Miller Genuine Draft being refinished by Stike, will probably buy a Diablo back soon, and still have a boomer'd Diablo with ebony board. I don't *need* any new guitars. But I'd put my money where my mouth is if they ever do a superstrat competitive with G&Ls or EBMMs $1k+ guitars.
MCChris Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 3 hours ago, JimiH said: @NAMM2017 http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/namm-2017-hamer-guitars-is-back-back-back-647353 🤔 Before retiring from the stage in 2013, Hamer Guitars were seen, heard, and played around the world by acts that included Aerosmith, Bad Company, Blackfoot, Blues Brothers, Bon Jovi, Cheap Trick, The Cars, Def Leppard, Del Fuegos, Dire Straights, Eagles, Sammy Hagar, Hall & Oats, Billy Idol, Jethro Tull, Billy Joel, Kiss, Huey Lewis & the News, Gary Moore, Motley Crue, No Doubt, Neville Brothers, Night Ranger, Ted Nugent, Robert Palmer, The Police, The Pretenders, Judas Priest, Ratt, The Romantics, Savoy Brown, The Sex Pistols, Steve Simmons, Billy Squire, Third Eye Blind, Steve Vai, The Who, Wishbone Ash, and Warren Zane, among many others.
zorrow Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 "Gig bags are available separately for the entire line, which will be available for delivery at the end of January 2017." From here: http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/namm-2017-hamer-guitars-is-back-back-back-647353 Count me in for the gigbags!
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