Tale of two guitars

[Ting Ho Dung]

I have a couple LP style guitars. Both hog and maple caps. Both double cutaway. Both play equally well. About the only difference between them other than the color is one is much thicker with total rim being two inches thick. The maple caps are pretty much equal in thickness. Acoustically they are as different as peas and corn. And I’m wondering why. One is warm and thick sounding. One is thin and very nasally sounding like a pig. I had a blind comparison with my wife and son and each liked the warm sounding one better. I do too when side by side. But when played individually the tone kind of goes away as I become involved with playing it and enjoying the vibrations and projection they both have. My questions are, why such a difference in tone when they are basically the same guitar with only about a quarter-inch difference in thickness and based on my description which do you think is what? I should mention they are from different manufacturers and neither is Gibson. 

 

[RobB]

There's really no "why." The scientific examination of the differences in species, age, moisture content, finish type/thickness, headstock angle, neck joint, ad nauseum, would probably still not come up with a convincing argument to explain away "warmth" and "nasal." 

From my limited knowledge of electric solid bodies, I can maybe conclude that a thin lacquer finish seems to, over time, allow wood to resonate more than a thick, poly finish. But that's not always the case.

Wood is a random thing. That's why guitars are bitchin. Sometimes you get one that vibrates, other times you get a dud. Maybe the good one won't sound so great amplified, and the dud is an awesome platform for pickups and recording. 

I feel that all the above has more impact on an acoustic guitar, but now even MadeInAsia CNC-made guitars can sound killer out of the box. All the cork-sniffery of quality of materials, craftsmanship, et. al., is best left to the experts.

[BubbaVO]

I've noticed the same thing with the guitars I've had - even among similar Hamers. I just chalk it up to differences in the wood itself.  But that's a complete guess.  

[Ting Ho Dung]

I guess I should have included that the 2 incher I know is nitro the other is some sort of poly. 

[RobB]

My YJM Strat got nitro-refinned/relic'ed years back. Guitar rings pretty ballzy unplugged, but it's been so long that I can't honestly say if it "opened-up", or whatever. Sure feels and LOOKS better, though. It's no longer that horrible shade of banana yellow, or whatever they call it. 

Fender did OEM nitro neck and poly body. Took a few years for that scooped-out neck to settle down, and I still have to keep up on truss rod adjustments. Maybe it would've more stable with poly? Meh...

[scottcald]

Just chalk it up to nature.  BTW, do they both have the same pickups and electronics?  Or are you just talking unplugged sound?

[Ting Ho Dung]

17 minutes ago, scottcald said:

Just chalk it up to nature.  BTW, do they both have the same pickups and electronics?  Or are you just talking unplugged sound?

Unplugged my friend. I’m going to get the pickups as close as I can to each other and then compare them plugged in. But that won’t be this weekend. 

[The Shark]

In my experience, I've found weight to be the single most important factor in guitars of the same basic build materials and specs.  But I've had light guitars that sounded like crap and heavy guitars that seemed to prove me wrong.  They were outliers.  After over a thousand guitars, I think I'm settled on weight.  It's just not easy to pinpoint a "formula". 

[Jakeboy]

2 minutes ago, The Shark said:

In my experience, I've found weight to be the single most important factor in guitars of the same basic build materials and specs.  But I've had light guitars that sounded like crap and heavy guitars that seemed to prove me wrong.  They were outliers.  After over a thousand guitars, I think I'm settled on weight.  It's just not easy to pinpoint a "formula". 

Seriously, you’ve had over a thousand guitars?  This is astonishing. Not good or bad, just astonishing.

[Ting Ho Dung]

Melancon’s are light and I’ve never picked up a bad one

[Texsunburst59]

Over a thousand guitars The Shark?

 

[DBraz]

It's an interesting subject and my opinion is that nature throws out curveballs.

Some guitars I own just sound amazing.  And I mean amazing.  I may have had the same model of guitar with the "same" materials before, all other items equal, and they didn't sound anywhere near as good.

If you can find the great ones keep them if you can.

[The Shark]

5 hours ago, Jakeboy said:

Seriously, you’ve had over a thousand guitars?  This is astonishing. Not good or bad, just astonishing.

I owned a vintage guitar shop for three years.  Sold about five hundred of them during that period.  It was when the Yen allowed the Japanese to pay top dollar for anything they wanted to collect.  I sold to Mac Yasuda (his "client" was the first PGA Japanese pro Aoki) and Alfa Export in California bought every guitar I could get.  I trolled pawn shops and music stores from Miami to Atlanta and bought every guitar I could find.  Then, the Yen tanked and I was out of business.  So, I've only owned about five hundred myself.  But I started in 1977 and that's really only one guitar deal a month, if my math is close!

[Jakeboy]

Wow, I’d be interested in hearing about the very best sounding ones you played...

[The Shark]

28 minutes ago, Jakeboy said:

Wow, I’d be interested in hearing about the very best sounding ones you played...

There were some really great instruments.  I still own three of the best guitars I've ever played.  They are, in no particular order...

My Danocaster Fiesta Red "Double Cut".  It has Rocketfire pickups which are fantastic.  It's just the desert island guitar I never thought I'd buy from a guy building relics.  He told me that he should have kept it and sent me another guitar...

My Les Paul replica built by my best friend Chris Lukasik.  He passed about seven years ago.  It has a real set of PAFs from a 1959 ES-355 and many of the parts are authentic.  No guitar player that's ever seen it didn't ask "how much".

Was always a Pat Travers fan.  My aforementioned buddy Chris worked on his Melody Maker back in the day in Orlando.  I found this guitar for beans in original condition.  Had my new guitar guy Peter Taylor from Chellee Guitars here in Central Florida replicate the guitar on the Putting it Straight album.  Real patent numbers and a patent applied for Badass bridge. Rings like a piano when played acoustically.  Just an exemplary guitar in every way. 

 

 

[scottcald]

32 minutes ago, The Shark said:

Was always a Pat Travers fan.  My aforementioned buddy Chris worked on his Melody Maker back in the day in Orlando.  I found this guitar for beans in original condition.  Had my new guitar guy Peter Taylor from Chellee Guitars here in Central Florida replicate the guitar on the Putting it Straight album.  Real patent numbers and a patent applied for Badass bridge. Rings like a piano when played acoustically.  Just an exemplary guitar in every way. 

 

 

The Pat Travers thing is one of those I'd like to do at some point.  Love the look of the double cut Melody Makers.  What year is that one and what's the neck like?

[The Shark]

39 minutes ago, scottcald said:

The Pat Travers thing is one of those I'd like to do at some point.  Love the look of the double cut Melody Makers.  What year is that one and what's the neck like?

I had a fantastic '65 SG Standard at one point.  I sold it for big money (at the time) to a guy in England.  The USPS broke it in three places.  It really bothered me for a long time.  Years later, a buddy told me that the Melody Makers from '65 had the same neck.  Low and behold, they do.  It's full and has a killer Brazilian board.  Anything after '65 and before '63 is something entirely different.  You should get one. 

[ARM OF HAMER]

10 hours ago, The Shark said:

There were some really great instruments.  I still own three of the best guitars I've ever played.  They are, in no particular order...

My Danocaster Fiesta Red "Double Cut".  It has Rocketfire pickups which are fantastic.  It's just the desert island guitar I never thought I'd buy from a guy building relics.  He told me that he should have kept it and sent me another guitar...

My Les Paul replica built by my best friend Chris Lukasik.  He passed about seven years ago.  It has a real set of PAFs from a 1959 ES-355 and many of the parts are authentic.  No guitar player that's ever seen it didn't ask "how much".

Was always a Pat Travers fan.  My aforementioned buddy Chris worked on his Melody Maker back in the day in Orlando.  I found this guitar for beans in original condition.  Had my new guitar guy Peter Taylor from Chellee Guitars here in Central Florida replicate the guitar on the Putting it Straight album.  Real patent numbers and a patent applied for Badass bridge. Rings like a piano when played acoustically.  Just an exemplary guitar in every way. 

                                  Be happy to say I owned any of those! They are all super cool!  Those Pat # PUPS will set you back a few $$$$!!! And that Les Paul Replica..............Massive!

 

 

[Ting Ho Dung]

Okay, full disclosure now. I wanted opinions without bias so kept some points out. The thinner guitar is a ‘95 USA Hamer Studio with belly cut. Hamer used a poly blend of some sort. The thicker guitar is a Heritage H110 custom with the extra quarter inch of hog and no chambering. The neck of the Hamer is 3 piece where they flip the middle piece for stability. It’s similar to what PRS calls their wide fat neck. I believe the headstock is 13 degrees. The Heritage is one piece baseball bat style with 17 degree pitch. Made in Kalzoo. I pulled out my son’s 81 LPC from Kalzoo last night and it sounded more like the Heritage. So it could be the nitro combined with Kalzoo wood along with the one piece neck and headstock pitch. All 3 guitars resonate equally well. The Hamer has a JB in the bridge.  I have an extra JB and will put it in the Heritage to see if any of this tone transfers when plugged in my Mesa. But not this weekend.

[DaveH]

1 hour ago, Ting Ho Dung said:

Okay, full disclosure now. I wanted opinions without bias so kept some points out. The thinner guitar is a ‘95 USA Hamer Studio with belly cut. Hamer used a poly blend of some sort. The thicker guitar is a Heritage H110 custom with the extra quarter inch of hog and no chambering. The neck of the Hamer is 3 piece where they flip the middle piece for stability. It’s similar to what PRS calls their wide fat neck. I believe the headstock is 13 degrees. The Heritage is one piece baseball bat style with 17 degree pitch. Made in Kalzoo. I pulled out my son’s 81 LPC from Kalzoo last night and it sounded more like the Heritage. So it could be the nitro combined with Kalzoo wood along with the one piece neck and headstock pitch. All 3 guitars resonate equally well. The Hamer has a JB in the bridge.  I have an extra JB and will put it in the Heritage to see if any of this tone transfers when plugged in my Mesa. But not this weekend.

"One is warm and thick sounding. One is thin and very nasally sounding like a pig"

So, which one is which here?

[The Shark]

Honestly, I've never played a Heritage that sounded good or was light.  They did some weight relieved stuff, but that mucks with the low-mids more than anything.  The three Gary Moore models I had were incredibly beautiful, but they were logs.  Didn't ring acoustically at all.  Just my experience.

[Ting Ho Dung]

1 hour ago, DaveH said:

"One is warm and thick sounding. One is thin and very nasally sounding like a pig"

So, which one is which here?

The Hamer is the warm one. The LPC doesn’t sound quite as nazaly as the Heritage but it’s closer to it than the Hamer. Wish I still had some other Hamers to compare. But none of this may mean a thing when plugged in. 

[black magic]

I have 3 all maple Carvin guitars. All the same bridge pickup. 2 only have a bridge pickup, the one is H/H/H with the 2nd 2 being stacked single sized humbuckers. All 3 different bridges. All 3 sound so much different than the other, but I love all 3. The only same things is the woods. With the JB you mentioned, I have loved that in any guitar I ever had one in except my 2001 Hamer Studio Custom. It seams a little thin and shrill to me. I think a lot of tone comes from the pickup and they way it is wound.

[BubbaVO]

my Hamer studio and arch top custom had beautiful tops, but they werent lively.  Not bad guitars by any stretch yet  they didn't blow me away.  But my Hamer mirage still amazes me - despite the homely top, chipped finish and often criticized design issues.   The body vibrates when you strum it and notes just ring out.   No idea why that is. 

[cynic]

You could just as likely have the same problem with two identical guitars from the same year from any manufacturer.