Tell me the truth about AMPS

[sledhead44]

I just play for a hobby, but I really want a big tube amp. Maybe some people want these just for the looks, but I really am searching for a particular tone. A salesperson at my local music store made me feel pretty dumb about wanting a 1/2 stack and said I would blow out my windows, and that it would be not in my best interest to purchase one because a big tube amp has a sweet spot that I would not be able to reach at indoor levels. I have a VOX VT100 and it has a power knob on it that works well for me, I just wanted to try out some different equipment to see if it will give me the tone I want.

What amps I'm possibly looking at to compare to find my tone:

Marshall (duh)

Mesa /Boogie Rectifier

Crate Blue Voodoo

Peavy 5150 / 6505

And all variant model numbers of the above

Here is what I really want to know:

1. Is there such a thing as a "sweet spot" on a big tube amp that I won't be able to attain because the volume would be too high inside my house?

2. If #1 is correct....can't I just get an attenuator? Or would that ruin the tone?

3. What do you recommend for 80's hair metal?

4. Would I need an assortment of pedals or a Multi Effects Processor? I just have a Digitech RP200 now.

I really need some honest advice.

Give it to me straight guys, I can take it.

[jisham]

If you don't have neighbors or family members/roommates who care about volume, then you will have no problems.

In my experience, all those amps you mention do, indeed, have a sweet spot and it's typically at volume levels way above "bedroom" volume. 5150s and Mesas in particular sound stellar once the master volume gets to ear bleeding levels. It's why they BRING THE ROCK.

Attenuators suck tone like no tomorrow. Some people will disagree but I've tried them all and there's a trade off between tone and volume every time as far as I'm concerned.

If money isn't a big concern and you're challenged with playing at bedroom volume as a home player, I'd seriously recommend looking into an Axe-FX rack unit. I know several guys I trust very very much who swear by their tones.

Another option is the lower watter amps most every company is coming out with these days. For 80s metal, you might look into the Blackstar HT5 head. That little thing is bad ass and has great metal tones, as well as a great clean channel.

[MCChris]

1. My opinion of an amp's sweet spot is the point on the volume/master volume where the amp stops getting louder and starts compressing instead. Generally the amps you listed would be pretty fucking loud at their sweet spots.

2. An attenuator may in fact "ruin the tone" if your goal is to take a high-wattage amp all the way down to bedroom levels.

3 & 4 are matters of personal taste.

[JohnnyB]

1. Is there such a thing as a "sweet spot" on a big tube amp that I won't be able to attain because the volume would be too high inside my house?

Amps, especially tube amps, have sweet spots that vary according to your use. If you want to play on the edge of clean-to-dirty, there is definitely a narrow sweet spot where the clean signal overloads into noticeable distortion. This sweet spot occurs at a different volume relative to the size and power of the rig. Eric Clapton used a Fender Tweed Champ (5 watts, single 6.5" speaker) for "Layla"--all you need in a studio setting.

2. If #1 is correct....can't I just get an attenuator? Or would that ruin the tone?

It'll help, but won't cop the entire tone because part of it is speaker cone breakup, which you won't get indoors with a half stack unless you intend to peel the paint. This is one of the reasons vintage buffs like the old Jensens, Celestion Bluebells, and Greenbacks--how the cones break up and distort when pushed.

Also, good attenuators like the Marshal Gov'nor and THD Hot Plate are expensive and burn up your tubes at the same rate as if you always practiced at full volume.

3. What do you recommend for 80's hair metal?

A very large dumpster.

Seriously, the right sized Mesa Boogie or Soldano--low-powered 1x12.

4. Would I need an assortment of pedals or a Multi Effects Processor? I just have a Digitech RP200 now.

That's a matter of taste. For me, a rack full of effects (especially digital) says "tone like ass," but obviously a lot of successful shredders who play better than I could ever dream of use'em. I still don't like their tone. For my taste a Soldano or Mesa should get you pretty much what you want without a lot of effects. I did find, however, that I got into a whole other distortion zone when I dimed a Maxon OD-808 overdrive into the lead channel of a Mesa DC-10 that also had the gain knob dimed.

Still, that can't touch the tone I heard about a week ago when Pesocaster plugged his Warmoth Esquire into a genuine 1959 Tweed Bassman. Holy Cow! Talk about tone to die for! Still, driving that 40w 4x10 to the distortion sweet spot was also way too loud for home use unless you live on acreage and Marlee Matlin is your roommate.

[MCChris]

good attenuators like the Marshal Gov'nor

First time I've ever seen those two sets of words in such close proximity.

[HSB0531]

A rack of AC-15's.

6 of em 2x3

Sweet and loud

[JohnnyB]

good attenuators like the Marshal Gov'nor

First time I've ever seen those two sets of words in such close proximity.

Should have said "higher priced attenuators." I knew the Hot Plate was good as far as these things go; wrong assumption that Marshall would know how to get their own tone at lower volumes.

[edgar_allan_poe]

I thought the Gov'nor was an OD pedal. IIRC Marshall's attenuator is called the Power Brake.

[crunchee]

I just wanted to try out some different equipment to see if it will give me the tone I want.

I'm curious, what did they say at the store when you asked them to actually test drive a few at higher volume--or wouldn't they let you? Don't they have the facilities to let anyone really TRY an amp, or are they just selling expensive furniture? I'd recommend trying a few at the volumes you're looking at before throwing cash down. You might change your mind.

[JohnnyB]

I thought the Gov'nor was an OD pedal. IIRC Marshall's attenuator is called the Power Brake.

You're right. Power Brake is the one I meant.

[backinit]

I have BV120 and although it's loud and gainey, it is one of the dumbest musical purchases I have ever made. I will never need the quanity of power that brings to the table. My 33 watt Crate head does everything I will need in a live setting (through a 4X12).

There are so many different ways to get where you want to be. Why not just stick with what you have? I mean it has a line out and mics are cheap...

[Armitage]

In my home, I have a 5150 full stack, a Soldano Decatone, a Stephens Pound Cake and just sold my Marshall TSL and XXX heads... and I play a Vox Valvetronix, a 30 watter, for the tone at "at home" volumes... even when watching TV. It sounds much better.

I do have a THD Hot Plate, but there is SO much more then just tubes and volume in tone, there is also how the room reacts, the speakers breaking up when pushed, the way the ears hear things differently at different volumes (i.e. the Fletcher-Munson effect)... The HotPlate is great for taming a non master volume amp or running your amp at it's sweet spot, say 6 or 7, in a room you can only run at 5. But not cranked on 10 but only as loud as on 1.

Out of all the stacks I've had, the 5150 is the only one that sounded really good at lowER volumes... basically because it has way too much gain to use when turned up.

I want something better then the Vox Valvetronix... I just haven't heard it yet.

[Mindseyes]

Check out this thread on a 1/2watt Mesa clone

http://forums.birdsandmoons.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72422

[eightyfour]

Sweet spot ÷ 100w amp x neighbors = Can't get there from here.

[santellavision]

18watts for me is the sweet spot for home use. (Plus 18 watter do work well for gigging and practicing too.) It's just you can dime them and get all that magic tone without the neighbors complaining. Check out some of the awesome 18 watt amps. Roccaforte, Marshall, Suhr Badger, Dr. Z. (I just picked up a used Maz Jr that just kills)

[JohnnyB]

18watts for me is the sweet spot for home use. (Plus 18 watter do work well for gigging and practicing too.) It's just you can dime them and get all that magic tone without the neighbors complaining. Check out some of the awesome 18 watt amps. Roccaforte, Marshall, Suhr Badger, Dr. Z. (I just picked up a used Maz Jr that just kills)

And Top Hat Club Royale and several sub-15-watters from Matchless including the Lightning, Spitfire, Nighthawk, and 6w 1x12 Baby.

If it were me, I'd follow the advice of a previous poster who nominated the Blackheart Little Giant.

Get the head and an assortment of Craigslist/pawnshop speaker cabs to experiment with. You'd probably be surprised what a 5-watt tube amp can do with a 4x12 cab.

[jisham]

None of those 18 waters will give him high gain on their own, which he's looking for I believe.

[MCChris]

18watts for me is the sweet spot for home use. (Plus 18 watter do work well for gigging and practicing too.) It's just you can dime them and get all that magic tone without the neighbors complaining. Check out some of the awesome 18 watt amps. Roccaforte, Marshall, Suhr Badger, Dr. Z. (I just picked up a used Maz Jr that just kills)

You must have some deaf neighbors or y'all live far apart in Colorado. 18 watts dimed is friggin' loud, man. I had a Fargen MiniPlex, and dimed at 12 watts, it was slightly louder than a very loud drummer. Which means, still blaring loud, but fully compressed and pushing the power tube.

Oh and a previous poster didn't recommend a Blackheart but a Blackstar. I agree with that suggestion; a buddy of mine is a big fan of the Blackstar gear and his HT5 delivers the gain you're looking for at a truly reasonable power level (5 watts).

[JGale]

Oh yes!

Wait. AMPS or TRAMPS?

[daa2202]

Let me say a (rare) positive word about attenuators. I have both a THD HotPlate (4 ohm) and a Marshall PowerBrake and have used them both successfully for 10+ years with a variety of Marshall tube amps (50- and 100-watt) at home without problems. They both do change the tone, but it's hard to tell how much is really tone change due to the attenuator and how much is due to the human ear's non-linearity of frequency response with volume. For me, a good attenuator allows me to get a very good full, rich tone (w/power tube overdrive) at low levels...maybe not bedroom or apartment levels, but a very usable and sane volume level that's entirely workable at home.

Also, specifically about the Marshall PowerBrake...I've had one of these for 13 years and never had a problem. It's built like a tank and (unlike the HotPlate) is switchable to handle both 8- or 16-ohm speaker loads (the HotPlates are resistance-specific...there are separate models for 16 ohms, 8 ohms, 4 ohms, etc.) The HotPlate definitely rolls off the high end pretty substantially, but you know what? I use mine with a 50-watt JCM 900 (model 4500) and the PowerBrake filters out most of the "fizziness" that people don't like about JCM 900s and leaves the thundering crunch behind. It's a great sounding rig and one of my favorites.

The 4x12 closed-back cabinet is a big part of the "Marshall sound", too. I've never heard an open-back combo that can produce the "thump" that a closed-back 4x12 can, with or without an attenuator. My cabinets are loaded with Celestion Vintage 30s, and they're great sounding speakers IMO.

The prior comment about wear on the power amp tubes is accurate (it is like running them at full blast at all times, because that's actually what you are doing.) But that's part of what makes it sound like that. There's a big difference between a Marshall tube amp on 6-7 versus one that's on 10...and it's not primarily volume.

[DavidE]

I have all kinds of tube amps from low waters to high waters. They all have their own thing but even the 15 waters are loud enough to gig with. But I just picked up a fender cyber champ for little dough and it's a great amp for getting high gain tones at low volume. Really surprising. It's tough to get a tube amp to sound like this at low volume.

[polara]

I once cranked my 15-watt Lightning with 1 12, and every condo neighbor, even in other buildings, asked me "what the hell" and it was deafening in here, too. I can't even GIG with a Vox AC30 in anyplace less than 500 capacity, and when I was playing in a hard rock band with a JCM800 100-watt into a 1960 cab,the sound guy told us our stage volume was too high... in a 1500 seat venue. A half-stack turned up to power tube distortion at home will require a basement built like a bomb shelter and some excellent ear protection.

Genuine hair metal sound and bedroom volumes probably ain't gonna happen. Mess with a POD long enough and you'll get there. Or a little amp (single power tube, 5 watts or so) run clean with a Boss Metal Zone and a compressor and delay in front...?

[belikerick]

18watts for me is the sweet spot for home use. (Plus 18 watter do work well for gigging and practicing too.) It's just you can dime them and get all that magic tone without the neighbors complaining. Check out some of the awesome 18 watt amps. Roccaforte, Marshall, Suhr Badger, Dr. Z. (I just picked up a used Maz Jr that just kills)

You must have some deaf neighbors or y'all live far apart in Colorado. 18 watts dimed is friggin' loud, man.

AMEN! I have a Savage Macht12 with the studio/stage switch (6/12 watts) and I can't turn it up on the 6 watt setting without blasting my neighbors, let alone using it at 12 watts. I also have a H&K Tube 50 if we ever get to play The Fillmore in Denver.

[JohnnyB]

None of those 18 waters will give him high gain on their own, which he's looking for I believe.

The Top Hats have a pull-boost plus volume plus a master volume, plus a tube rectifier. Still it may be a more traditional distortion than the OP is looking for. Sure are great-sounding amps with great grind down below and a singing compressed sustain up top.

[specialk]

I've thought about getting this one. Would it get him where he wants to be?

The Vox AC4TV, with the built-in attenuator.

http://www.voxamps.com/us/modernclassic/ac4tv/