the DiMarzio double-creme trademark thing

[soli'd]

This info is likely available on the web, but this is a cooler hang than the whole of google.  

I was reading a post on TGP that referenced DiMarzio's trademark on double creme humbuckers.  I have heard this mentioned before but I'm unclear as to what the situation really is.  

Has there ever been a time that the only double creme pickups you may see were DiMarzios?  Are no PAFs double creme under the covers?  Now that you see double creme pickups from other suppliers (several small business winders come to mind), are those sanctioned?  If so, what changed and when? 

Any info that can be provided without getting anyone in trouble is appreciated.  If it needs to be by PM that's fine, too.

Thanks-

[carfish7]

Get the Prez of Schecter fired up. Mike has some passion if he thinks some fuckery has occurred. Don't ask me how I know......

The notion of this is silly on the surface, and hopefully will be righted. Reminds me of when Harley Davidson attempted to "own" the sound produced by their 45 degree V-twins.  Their efforts failed, and rightfully so. Best of luck with this pursuit.

[Biz Prof]

3 hours ago, carfish7 said:

Reminds me of when Harley Davidson attempted to "own" the sound produced by their 45 degree V-twins.  Their efforts failed, and rightfully so. Best of luck with this pursuit.

In fairness, H-D, for a few decades in the late 20th century, owned the sound of silence emanating from motorcycles sidelined with mechanical issues. 

[WolfeMacleod]

4 hours ago, carfish7 said:

Get the Prez of Schecter fired up. Mike has some passion if he thinks some fuckery has occurred. Don't ask me how I know......

The notion of this is silly on the surface, and hopefully will be righted. Reminds me of when Harley Davidson attempted to "own" the sound produced by their 45 degree V-twins.  Their efforts failed, and rightfully so. Best of luck with this pursuit.

I'm working on Mike and have already spoken with him.   He told me that they weren't even aware of a trademark issue...  and that the custom shop had done some.

I just spoke with someone at Carvin.  Hopefully, they'll take an interest as well.  They do plenty of cream, but get away with it by using 12 poles per coil.

Ohh yeah..   if anyone wants some reading material on this subject, I have several PDF files for you at www.wolfetone.com/trademark

 

  They'll let you know just how much fuckery has occurred.   They're quite enlightening as how how valid the trademark is, and how easily it could fall if there is enough support.

[tbonesullivan]

12 hours ago, carfish7 said:

Get the Prez of Schecter fired up. Mike has some passion if he thinks some fuckery has occurred. Don't ask me how I know......

The notion of this is silly on the surface, and hopefully will be righted. Reminds me of when Harley Davidson attempted to "own" the sound produced by their 45 degree V-twins.  Their efforts failed, and rightfully so. Best of luck with this pursuit.

I heard a story where H-D even wanted to trademark the "tink tink tink" sound made as the engine cools off. Not sure how they can do that, but they can.

Stories like DiMarzio are why companies go for some trademarks, even if it isn't clear they will get it. They know if they do get it, it can be cost prohibitive for other people to strike it down.

Seriously though, the fact that you can trademark double creme pickups is kinda nonsensical. Was that the Dimarzio Logo? Has it ever been?

[The Shark]

I've never been inhibited by Larry Dimarzio.  I've been able to buy double-whatever you want to call them for the past thirty eight years I've been buying and selling guitars.  I can't remember one time that I couldn't get one.  I was a Seymour dealer in Orlando from '88 to '91 (my records show over three hundred pickups sold).  Sales rep Ron Tunks brought Seymour to my shop during a day-trip when they were visiting all the Seymour dealers in Orlando (eight stops that I can remember).  I asked Seymour about custom ordering some "doubles" and he told me to indicate on the order and he'd cover them without soldering the covers.  That was how it was done on the retail side.  And no other pickup company has refused me since.  I just bought a set of double white T-Top repros on this forum. 

To finish the story about Seymour's visit, there was a famous Orlando deli named Ronnie's on Colonial drive.  I bought lunch for everyone the day Seymour and Ron came.  Seymour had the egg salad sandwich plate.  I brought back an entire cheesecake.  Seymour was loosely a vegetarian and on a diet.  But he ate two slices of cheesecake that day.  He left part of his sandwich in our "fridge".  We left it in there (like a shrine) for months!  My wife pitched it when she cleaned the shop.  She wasn't asked back...

Much ado about nothing, in my mind.  Larry Dimarzio might own "doubles", but he's been woefully inept at keeping me from getting them from anyone who's made pickups since I got into this, if that was his goal.

 

 

[WolfeMacleod]

1 hour ago, The Shark said:

......

Much ado about nothing, in my mind.  Larry Dimarzio might own "doubles", but he's been woefully inept at keeping me from getting them from anyone who's made pickups since I got into this, if that was his goal.

 

 

They've threatened about five winders over the last year that I know.  I'm pretty sure I know the T-top winder you're talking about, and I know that since the lawsuit was filed, he's turned down quite a few double-cream requests.  Cost him a bundle in lost income.  Not him being sued, either.  

  Thing is, many of us are forced to do it if we want to survive.  For some, it means paying bills, rent, etc.  It has that much of an impact on some people.  The popularity comes in waves,..  there may be weeks or months where the vast majority of requests are for cream.  

[The Shark]

9 hours ago, WolfeMacleod said:

They've threatened about five winders over the last year that I know.  I'm pretty sure I know the T-top winder you're talking about, and I know that since the lawsuit was filed, he's turned down quite a few double-cream requests.  Cost him a bundle in lost income.  Not him being sued, either.  

  Thing is, many of us are forced to do it if we want to survive.  For some, it means paying bills, rent, etc.  It has that much of an impact on some people.  The popularity comes in waves,..  there may be weeks or months where the vast majority of requests are for cream.  

My comments weren't intended to trivialize the damage enforcing this ridiculous trademark might cause.  I'm sorry for that.  Hell, I have three guitars with Legends in them. Good luck with this, Wolfe. 

I will never buy anything from Dimarzio.  I'd be lying, if I didn't admit I made that decision decades before this thread.  Does he really think I'd use his pickups because I can't get them in the double configuration from anyone else?  What a dick.

[bubs_42]

I'll finish reading this juicy thread later, but just an FYI Dimarzio is not offering the classic "shiny" bobbins any longer as well. So distinguishing a DC Bobbin and a Dimarzio DC Bobbin is much easier than ever.  

[SoCalSean]

My $0.02 worth...

My tech (and builder of my avatar "Beatle VI-5 bass") used to be at DiMarzio and installed Pete Townshend's 3rd humbuckers way back in the day.  He now runs TopGearGuitar.com  a repair & custom shop in the San Diego area.  My impression (not wanting to put words in his mouth) was that he was royally screwed by Larry.  Conversely, DiMarzio was royally screwed when Carvin ordered a bunch of pickups (free samples, I think) and then copied them poorly to come up with their line of M-series pickups.

Side note on Carvin's "R&D:"  Their guitars were made by others for them into the 1970s.  They did stuff like the unwinding of the DiMarzios to copy them, they did the same with a Les Paul... FOR SCALE LENGTH!  What they failed to realized is that the fret widths were different so, Carvin measured the distance between frets and it was all off.  There were a quite a few of these guitars that couldn't be intonated!  They also got busted for the X100-series amp in a lawsuit from Mesa.  Thing is, they copied much of the circuit from Ampeg.  Until I left, they'd buy things deconstruct them and, many times, put them back together and return them to the store (namely Guitar Center) for a refund!

[HSB0531]

On 7/1/2016 at 5:27 PM, SoCalSean said:

My $0.02 worth...

My tech (and builder of my avatar "Beatle VI-5 bass") used to be at DiMarzio and installed Pete Townshend's 3rd humbuckers way back in the day.  He now runs TopGearGuitar.com  a repair & custom shop in the San Diego area.  My impression (not wanting to put words in his mouth) was that he was royally screwed by Larry.  Conversely, DiMarzio was royally screwed when Carvin ordered a bunch of pickups (free samples, I think) and then copied them poorly to come up with their line of M-series pickups.

Side note on Carvin's "R&D:"  Their guitars were made by others for them into the 1970s.  They did stuff like the unwinding of the DiMarzios to copy them, they did the same with a Les Paul... FOR SCALE LENGTH!  What they failed to realized is that the fret widths were different so, Carvin measured the distance between frets and it was all off.  There were a quite a few of these guitars that couldn't be intonated!  They also got busted for the X100-series amp in a lawsuit from Mesa.  Thing is, they copied much of the circuit from Ampeg.  Until I left, they'd buy things deconstruct them and, many times, put them back together and return them to the store (namely Guitar Center) for a refund!

What a bunch of scheming little dragging nutbags.

Just the kind of company I'd love to collectively slap the shit out of. 

[HSB0531]

On 6/30/2016 at 0:55 PM, Biz Prof said:

In fairness, H-D, for a few decades in the late 20th century, owned the sound of silence emanating from motorcycles sidelined with mechanical issues. 

AMF

[The Shark]

25 minutes ago, HSB0531 said:

AMF

Norlin...

 

[HSB0531]

On 6/24/2016 at 6:15 PM, benjammin308 said:

I've been involved in a few patent and trademark issues.  I believe that if a manufacturer wanted to invalidate the Dimarzio trademark in court they would have a very good chance based on the fact that there were other manufacturers using that color scheme before Dimarzio.  However, it would cost a lot of money to go through with the litigation (I'm talking hundreds of thousands).  The costs would likely never be recovered.  For the other manufacturers it is simply much easier to live with the stupid Dimarzio trademark and use different color schemes.  The little guys can maybe afford to take chance as they have very little for Dimarzio to go after and can fly under the radar.

If all the other companies got together in a class action lawsuit against Dimarzio, litigation costs could be shared, making the cost per company much less. 

[HSB0531]

On 6/24/2016 at 6:15 PM, benjammin308 said:

I've been involved in a few patent and trademark issues.  I believe that if a manufacturer wanted to invalidate the Dimarzio trademark in court they would have a very good chance based on the fact that there were other manufacturers using that color scheme before Dimarzio.  However, it would cost a lot of money to go through with the litigation (I'm talking hundreds of thousands).  The costs would likely never be recovered.  For the other manufacturers it is simply much easier to live with the stupid Dimarzio trademark and use different color schemes.  The little guys can maybe afford to take chance as they have very little for Dimarzio to go after and can fly under the radar.

If all the other companies got together in a class action lawsuit against Dimarzio, litigation costs could be shared, making the cost per company much less. 

[HSB0531]

6 minutes ago, The Shark said:

Norlin...

 

Loud Technologies (Ampeg)

[WolfeMacleod]

I got a call from Dean Zelinsky this morning.  A mutual friend put us in touch..  Dean received a cease and desist a couple months ago...   for putting two single coil pickups with cream covers side-by-side.   

[murkat]

^ that's fucked up.

[bubs_42]

Joe Barden did a 5 part series on Amps&Axes a while back. Seymour and Larry both pounced on the double blade pickups because it was not patented but they way they went about it was totally different. 

[Armitage]

10 hours ago, WolfeMacleod said:

I got a call from Dean Zelinsky this morning.  A mutual friend put us in touch..  Dean received a cease and desist a couple months ago...   for putting two single coil pickups with cream covers side-by-side.   

That's a riot!

[Studio Custom]

On June 27, 2016 at 11:42 PM, cmatthes said:

Anything I can do to support ya in that battle, Josh, just let me know!

 

Send me a $100,000 check and I'll be sure to forward it after collecting my processing fees.  

[Armitage]

 

Here's my '80 Ibanez ST-1300BS up to it's eyeballs in Ibanez Super '70s double creams....

[it's me HHB]

I just bought an AR50 w 2 double creme super 70s

[killerteddybear]

What is the the effective time of a trademark?
Patents offer protection for 17 years. I thought trademarks would have a time limit as well.

[django49]

2 hours ago, killerteddybear said:

What is the the effective time of a trademark?
Patents offer protection for 17 years. I thought trademarks would have a time limit as well.

I believe they are effective in perpetuity. That is, IF the party owning the trademark actively uses it AND protects it from infringement, such as by taking legal action against those using it (without authorization). The "Use it or lose it" aspect is why people litigate. (Or threaten to do so if an offender fails to "cease and desist").

[benjammin308]

Trademarks are forever as long as they are used and maintained.  That's what keeps imposters from using names like Coke and Budweiser.