HAMERMAN Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 I don't have the kind of money it takes to custom order a new Hamer. If I did I would probably be pretty frustrated about the situation.OTOH:I may not always agree with what particular guitar's Hamer wants to make at a given time but as long as they continue to make high quality guitars that sound great I cannot fault their vision. I far prefer that to a full on pimping out of the brand; a road so many other companies seem more than happy to go down. >People always mentions their "quaint" small limited workforce and small shop, which is another thing I don't understand. What would be the sin in expanding operations by hiring more qualified technicians, and moving to a larger facility? Isn't that the basics of entrepreneurship in America. Given the crappy economic environment I wouldn't be surprised if Hamer's order backlog has been slowly shrinking as of late. Having a decent backlog in the first place to fall back on in times like this is one of the many things a guitar company has to do to ensure they stay around. Overstaffing is probably something they will continue to be very carefull to avoid.
mirrorimij Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 I have a few opinions on this topic (these are opinions only). 1) The tooling, templates, etc for the older stuff never made it to the New Hartford facility. Doing a one-off of an older model they don't have tooling for would be almost like tooling up for a new model BECAUSE2) They over engineer EVERYTHING. I view this as a good thing. The guys there have the talent AND they have the know how to do it right (usually on the first try). They simply don't half ass it and that sometimes makes what looks like any easy upgrade/change difficult. Depending on the workload, backlog, other projects means they sometimes choose to do it and sometimes they choose not to because there is an opportunity cost involved. 3) They are no longer just Hamer Guitars. They have a much smaller space and share a facility with Ovation and Guild. Most likely resources, inventory and manpower are shared. That was NOT the case in Illinois so in a way it is like comparing apples to oranges.I'm not defending anybody. Even in Arlington Heights there were certain things they would not do at certain times (paint a Goldtop or opaque black on a carved/bound mahogany top is one that immedietely comes to mind).
cmatthes Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 But your opinions are based on fact and actual experience, not conjecture. All good points above.
serial Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 I have a few opinions on this topic (these are opinions only). Yeah, and what makes YOU so "in the know"? Good points and obviously from a good source as always-I was aware of #1 and #2 kind of goes without saying, particularly with Jol's penchant for making top notch guitars. I have to send you a pic, Bob. Silly, but you'd appreciate it I think...
zorrow Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 The story about the templates not making it to the new facilities (and so on) makes a lot of sense to me.However, that wouldn't be a good enough reason to stop making new models and to refuse reissuing the old ones. It's clear to me that for Jol this is not about money anymore.In the case of Glenn Tipton, well, Jol and him are friends. They have been into fights together and so on... So, it is normal that if a close friend (who in addition happens to be a big rock star) asks you to build a custom model for him, you wouldn't say "no", right?In any case, Hamer guitars ARE NO LONGER FOR THE WORKING MUSICIAN, and that's a fact we all MUST assume.IMHO, Hamer has just chosen the easy path: building some few, rigid, standard models at astronomical prices to please just a very reduced customer base, and that's all. They don't want to expand their horizons, they don't want to get any bigger and they don't care about (y)our fancy needs; they just want to cash enough to live by targeting rich customers, and that's about it.Naturally, sometimes Jol would want to have some extra fun and would do something new (such as the Talladega), but all the fun will stop there. It's not about YOU, but THEM. They do what they want, not what you ask them to do, and that's the way it is now.So said, I'm still a fan of old Hamers. They used to offer a great quality/price ratio. Sad but true, with the new models it's no longer the case. They are overpriced. Hamers are the Ferrari and the Rolls-Royce guitar equivalents, period. If you can't afford them or if they won't build for you the small utility car of your dreams, just look elsewhere.An American builder that offers a lot of options for fair prices is Carvin. They seem to be very customer-oriented as well --according to what two fellow musicians (one bassist and one guitarist) from South Florida told me.And for those turning to Ran guitars in Poland, I can guarantee you those guys are great builders too. Jeff Waters from Annihilator has been playing the shit out of his Ran guitars, as well as Dave Padden (his singer and co-guitarist) and all what they have to say about Ran guitars falls into the "praising" category.
Mindseyes Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Not to derail or piss anyone off...........Just a point-o-viewIf some of yall think Hamer's are over priced go price a Prs witch is mostly a CNC made guitar!! (I have a few prs and realy like them BTW)Now they are comeing out with whats called "Pauls 28" @ around $25Kpaul will have a hand in makeing them(by hand? just sanding? who knows?) but come on Hamer allready makes them that way!I think hamer is still the best value for a HAND made guitar!Those Ran guitars look pretty cool and i keep hearing a good buzz about them, i'd like to try one one day.I sure wish Joe was still around to set all of yall straight with his "spidey powers"......................LOL!
mirrorimij Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Steve, Good to hear from you. I'm having some trouble with the PM functions today. Send the pic to rpowers at snet dot net.I have to respectfully disagree with the above statement about Hamer taking the easy path. I have seen firsthand that they don't take the easy way out or cut corners. If anything they sometimes enjoy doing it the hard way when an easier way exists. A lot of times the difference in the result between doing it the easy way and hard way wouldn't be noticed by 95% of us. I know the guys in the shop thrive on pushing the envelope. I will agree that it is frustrating to not get what we want. In the end thats what it comes down to. They say no and we get frustrated. Chevrolet will not build a 1969 Chevelle SS 396. Should I be pissed at Chevy? I have to accept that I can buy a new Vette and get their cutting edge product, force myself to like that hideous Camaro reissue, pay through the nose to find a nice old Chevelle, have a custom builder restore one or restore one myself. Not exactly the same situation but similar. In the end its all good because we live in a time when SOMEONE will take our money and build us what we want. Just think about the 70's when you had a hard time FINDING a decent new production instrument, custom builders were almost non existent and cheap beginner guitars had Esteban like quality.
KevinDK Posted January 5, 2009 Author Posted January 5, 2009 My whole gripe with the current state of guitar manufactures is that there is nothing I see that shouts out "hey this is very cool" or "this is very unique" -like what we saw going on in the 80's and early 90's. There's nothing to get excited about or look forward to anymore. All these guitar companies seem to do is rehash the same old designs or maybe tweak them a little, and that's about it. I would just like to see something new and interesting. It's a weird thing with guitar manufacturing; that everybody can just blatantly steal each others designs and get away with it just by tweaking a couple of design nuances. My problem is nothing thrills me anymore. Everything I look at has been done to death before. I walk around Guitar Center, Sam Ash, local mom and pop stores, peruse small builders online and I can't find one thing that calls out to me. It seems that every company bases their designs off some Gibson or Fender product form 50 years ago. Everything out there is either a derivative of a Les Paul, SG, Flying V, Explorer, Strat, or Tele. It's mind numbing, but people still "oohh and ahhh" about this stuff like it's something so new and amazing that's never been seen before.I don't get it. I guess it's just a status thing like everything else in our society.
Scooter Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Who wanted a unique guitar? This is my custom non-Hamer. Most folks here have seen it. As you can probably tell, it was inspired by several cool Hamers. Like I said before, I asked Hamer to build a Monaco Elite with Standard headstock (didn't ask for the Cali fretboard or the Phantom Custom pickups). Anyway, when they said no, I found someone else to say yes.
zorrow Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Kevin, what thrills you? Just a Phantom? Because I think many manufacturers are still creating cool things nowadays. However, a guitar is just wire and wood. I don't think there are too many new shapes to invent -- I mean, playable and sellable shapes. Who wanted a unique guitar? This is my custom non-Hamer. Most folks here have seen it. As you can probably tell, it was inspired by several cool Hamers. Like I said before, I asked Hamer to build a Monaco Elite with Standard headstock (didn't ask for the Cali fretboard or the Phantom Custom pickups). Anyway, when they said no, I found someone else to say yes. That one looks really awesome! Who built it?
serial Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 My problem is nothing thrills me anymore. Everything I look at has been done to death before. I walk around Guitar Center, Sam Ash, local mom and pop stores, peruse small builders online and I can't find one thing that calls out to me. I agree with this. On a positive, that keeps me from going into bankruptcy! I can't remember the last time I walked into a guitar shop or mega store and seen anything that turned my head. Some older original vintage stuff maybe, but even that stuff isn't the kind of thing usually that gets me thinking "ok, what do I need to sell to get this?".I'm pretty much at the point where only a small number of things appeal to me as a purchaser. Actually, one or two newer Hamers are on that short list-the Newport for one. Always dug those. Other than old Icemans, original Deans and BC Riches, Dan Armstrong 6s, LP Customs or Antigua Fenders, I'm hard-pressed to even remotely GAS about much these days. Then again, I've got now or have owned most of the guitars I've lusted after at some point, so that's easy for me to say.Hamer has had three production "Artist Models". The Vector KK and the Phantom GT were the other two.
professorbb Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 I agree with Mindseye. Working through a dealer with a long and successful history with custom orders through Hamer and Kaman may produce more satisfactory results. It certainly did for me. Incidently, my custom order took about 11 months, but it did not involve an out-of-production or one-off body shape. It did include adding features that do not normally appear with the model.
hardheartedbill Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 the 90 IQ comment makes me hope your wheels fall offThank you. My point was- unskilled labor doing menial tasks shouldn't be making $70 an hour with an additional $20,000 a year in premium benefits on top of that. That's why your new car costs $25,000 instead of $17,000.working 40 hours a week on your feet is menial, nice
JohnnyThunders Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 I wanted a single pickup special, sunburst or studio without a pickguard a number of years ago, they woun't build it but would build a Monaco. I didn't want a Monaco. Tried a number of other custom builders and settled on one and after 9 months waiting I gave up, got my money back and gave up my dream. Then in the process of getting a beater special re-finished at R&S guitar they said they could re-top it. And the results were as follows:
BubbaVO Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Guitars that JD decides to have made for the Supa-Stahz! don't bug me that much. I love guitars and cars. As much as I'd love a mid-engine Corvette like this one from the 80s, it ain't happening. ... The concept cars that you really can't buy (I guess there's always a chance they show up at Barret Jackson) create brand awareness. These custom jobs by Hamer will do the same. I appreciate the craftsmanship nonetheless. And if they won't build what I want at the right price, I'll talk to one of the fine retailers here who can steer me to someone who will. Just to rub salt in your wounds, check out the Rick's birthday present on JD's guitar guru blog. Maybe one of you can try to get a red one. : )
bubs_42 Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 I wanted a single pickup special, sunburst or studio without a pickguard a number of years ago, they woun't build it but would build a Monaco. I didn't want a Monaco. Tried a number of other custom builders and settled on one and after 9 months waiting I gave up, got my money back and gave up my dream. Then in the process of getting a beater special re-finished at R&S guitar they said they could re-top it. And the results were as follows: Love that one Johnny !
blackfbiv Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 It's not that our money isn't as good as the Joe Rock Stars of the world - it's that we're not them! Bingo... and for some that's the hardest pill to swallow. Or should I say a LOT of people? I've come to the conclusion that if I want a T-bird shaped bass, I'll have to settle for a Gizbone... Or build something outta Warmoth parts... OR Cary could sell me his red one...
atquinn Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 ...I can respect and admire what they currently do, and yes their prices are reasonable for that level of quality, I just wish they hadn't completely forsaken their "Hot Rod" roots....From my perspective, the guitars Hamer is building now are much closer to their roots than the shredders they were building in the 80's. -Austin
KevinDK Posted January 5, 2009 Author Posted January 5, 2009 the 90 IQ comment makes me hope your wheels fall offThank you. My point was- unskilled labor doing menial tasks shouldn't be making $70 an hour with an additional $20,000 a year in premium benefits on top of that. That's why your new car costs $25,000 instead of $17,000.working 40 hours a week on your feet is menial, niceYes, taking an air ratchet and mindlessly bolting the same part on a car going down an assembly for 8 hours is menial to me. Realistically that's worth $15 an hour not $70 plus 20 grand in benefits.I've been working 40+ hours a week on my feet for the past 30 years. I don't have a Union backing me up and telling my boss I'm entitled to a job or threatening to shut him down if I don't get what I want. I earn my job and my raises everyday.
Thundernotes Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Let's get this back on topic please. Or just let it die until the next person brings it up 3 weeks from now... Union-bashing stuff goes in the Outer Circle, but it's not a great way to influence anybody. YMMV
Steve Haynie Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 My visual analogy Hamer buyers went from this: To this: Instead of to this:
Mindseyes Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Let's get this back on topic please. Or just let it die until the next person brings it up 3 weeks from now... Union-bashing stuff goes in the Outer Circle, but it's not a great way to influence anybody. YMMV Ok I got this all figured out!!! We can Start a "Hamer guitar players union"!!!!!!! Then they'll have to listen to us power to the people!!!
ajoso Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Could it be that one of the reasons they don't want to build old stuff is that these designs are too derivative of Gibsons (and Fender shredders for the 80's guitars.) Their newer designs seem to be moving away from the "equivalent to a Gibson X" mentality. I'm thinking of stuff like the Monaco III's and original Talledegas: guitars that mix different scale lengths and materials.Perhaps it's just me, but it seems that every time they introduce a new model, they then have to turn around and make it more Gibson-esque by adding flame maple tops and humbuckers. (Weren't the original artists the all-mahogany 25th anniversary?) Is this a reaction to market demand? Or just my imagination?
Steve Haynie Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Perhaps it's just me, but it seems that every time they introduce a new model, they then have to turn around and make it more Gibson-esque by adding flame maple tops and humbuckers. (Weren't the original artists the all-mahogany 25th anniversary?) Is this a reaction to market demand? Or just my imagination?What gets me is that some models were designed with spruce tops, then they get offered with flame maple tops. (There is a difference in tone between spruce and maple, so it would seem that there should also be a compensation in the pickups chosen for each type of top.) People like flame maple, so that is what we see ordered. No one drools over photos of spruce. The guitars with the maple tops must still sound good or we would not see so many of them ordered over and over again. The Artist did start out as the 25th Anniversary.
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