Beware of Forgeries...and Self Doubt!

[kizanski]

Last month, this topic about Chinese forgeries had me thinking.

Murkat Jay mentioned that the guitars were "real close, but not close enough," but that's the opinion of a guy who actually built Gibsons for a living (legitimately) for years.

I looked the examples he cited and thought, "Well, that would have fooled me."

But certainly I have been buying and selling long enough to say that I've seen it all at least twice. This couldn't happen to me.

Right??

In my usual eBay trolling I happen across a Nash Stratocaster. I need another Stratocaster like I need another anus, but I look at it anyway. Ebay, in its infinite wisdom, suggests another Strat, and then another, until I'm looking at some entry level Squire, in which I have zero interest. Less than zero even, except that in one of the photos is a Schecter Tele.

The Schecter is black with white binding. 21 frets on a birds-eye maple neck, Kent Armstrong pickups with inline controls.

This isn't one of the Dallas era Schecters. This is like Townshend used to play!

As a card-carrying PT Fanboi, now I WAS interested!

And what do you know? it's also for sale! The auction said so: "We also have the Schecter Townshend Telecaster in stock which is also for sale. Feel free to ask any questions."

So I did!.

Now, already the red flags are popping up in my head (and you already know with the benefit of my opening salvo where this is headed), but I ignore them. I ignored my own better judgement because I talked myself into the idea that it's possible I have come across a less-than-educated seller.

In our correspondence, he mentioned that "the serial number is S8475, and it is in drop-dead excellent beautiful condition which makes me believe that it's not from the 1970's."

​Well, now I think I know more than he does. After all, the "S" serial numbered Schecters were made in Van Nuys, CA until 1983. After that, they moved to 22 fret necks and diagonal controls.

And S8475? Well every Townshend fanboi knows that one of Pete's main stage guitars at the time was S8474! Duh!

So, I inquire further, he sends me photos of the guitar, I am quoted $1250 shipped (from Japan), and I call Serial Steve to check to see if my brain is working right.

We look at the photos, say, "Duuuude!" to each other a few times and take a calculated risk that this HAS to be what it looks like.

Never mind that the guitar looks Brand New in the photos. Never mind that the guy didn't have an auction for IT. Why not put it up for auction as well? Why just mention it in passing in a Squire Strat ad?

I even said to Steve, "This could be the perfect confidence scam here. He throws the line out and I'm taking the bait. I'm almost asking to be taken for a ride here."

Then Steve made a good point, "Why forge a freaking Schecter guitar? Kent Armstrong pickups, birds-eye maple neck, shipping from Japan... How much profit could he be looking to make off of this? If it's a scam, it's a pretty stupid one."

So, I take the bait and tell the seller, tommyguitarz, who has 100% feedback, that I'll take the guitar.

Serial recommends that I avoid the PayPal Gift route and offer to add the PayPal fees, requesting an invoice from the seller.

Sound advice, indeed, and I followed it. Good thing, too...

The guitar arrives, and very quickly, I might add.

The first thing I do is clip off the strings and pop the neck off of the body, snapping some photos of my own. I knew immediately one of two things: either this neck has never been separated from this body, or they were just put together a few days ago. The wood chips from the wiring route (made from the neck pocket) told me that the latter was more likely.

I popped out the pickups. Kent Armstrong for sure, but the wax was still on them. And this hardware has never been used - ever. There wasn't even string marks on the bridge saddles.

So, was this all new hardware and electronics on repainted wood?

The neck heel and neck pocket in the body were both branded - with an iron - "SCHECTER," but there were no serial numbers or pencil marks of any kind. This didn't look right either, but the question remained: Why forge a Schecter?? Why not forge something more valuable?

I post the photos and a much shortened version of the above story on the Gear Page and ask the musical question: What the Hell do I have here?

One very helpful Gear Page member sent me photos of what I was supposed to be seeing in the neck pocket and on the neck heel. He even asked if I had gotten it from tommyguitars in Japan.

Yeah, now I feel foolish.

Of course, this was a fake. I knew what it was supposed to look like. I've had a half a dozen Schecter PTs before, but they were Dallas era Schecters. Maybe the Van Nuys era ones were different.

No. This one's just bogus.

So now what? Was this knowingly passed on to me or was this an honest mistake by the seller?

Right about this time, Serial's words are banging around inside my head, "Pay the fees. otherwise you have no recourse if this is a fake."

I email the seller:

Hi Kenni,

We have a problem.

It turns out this guitar isn't a Schecter at all. Someone went to great lengths to make a forgery.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't know about it, but either way, I won't be keeping it.

I will require a full refund plus shipping back to you. This should not be my responsibility.

I'd appreciate a swift response or I'll have to report this to PayPal.

-Mike

He replies:

Howdy Mike,

Have received your message and thanks for writing. No worries if your not satisfied with the guitar. We will issue you a full refund with shipping. Let me know how much shipping is to Riverside, California and I'll add it to the refund. Ship it in a trackable manner so that it won't get lost.

Thanks for writing and sorry for your dissatisfaction. Looking forward to hearing from you. Take care and talk to you soon.

Regards,

Ken

Sounds reasonable and courteous enough, but what's wrong with this picture?

Where's his surprise and shock? "Are you sure?" "What makes you so sure it's a fake?" etc...

There was none of that, just my assurance that I would receive my money back. This didn't worry me, by the way. I was confident that PayPal would not side with a seller accused of what I was sitting on.

He asks me for my cost to ship to Riverside, CA, and says that he would refund my purchase plus the sipping to Riverside.

I tell him it will be $28 on top of my refund. He agrees and sends the money. Almost too easy.

He adds:

Howdy Mike,

Good to hear from you. The refund has been sent, and you were right, there was no fee involved. The shipping payment was sent separately. Sorry you didn't like the guitar. We get lots of guitars that come into the shop and refunds are not uncommon. Some get damaged during shipping, some are too heavy for customers, sometimes the color of the guitar and in the pics are a slightly different in shade. In the end, we aim to please. Talk to you later.

Regards,

Ken

The wrong color?? Too heavy??

Was he fucking with me now? Playing dumb?

If he's not playing dumb, he sure is perfectly ok with being taken, if he was indeed ignorant to the whole thing.

I send him the tracking confirmation, tell him that it will go out tomorrow, and he replied with this (as I was typing the above, coincidentally):

Howdy Mike,

Thanks for your reply and confirmation. Next time one of these guitars comes into my shop, what should I look for to determine if it's a fake or not? I don't want to be take again by the next kid that comes into the shop.

Regards,

Ken

Ok...now he IS fucking with me, isn't he?

I don't know if I should continue to suspend my disbelief as I would with a Spider-Man movie and educate him, or read give him both barrels so that he'll think twice before he sells another bogus guitar to anyone.

Like I said, I don't know.

But I have my money back, and I feel fortunate for that.

[Ting Ho Dung]

He's wanting to know how you knew it was a fake so he can fix that and put it back on ebay.

[cmatthes]

As well as fix the dozen or so other PT forgeries he's got just off camera in that hoarder's paradise.

[Biz Prof]

I believe our compadres nailed it. The sequence of messages strongly suggests that the seller was appeasing you on the details of the return before leading up to what seems to be a "so, how did you know?' snare.

[tobereeno]

where would the serial number be normally?

that is weird to forge a Schecter. if I were in your shoes I probably would have taken the same chance as well. I don't personally get the whole Schecter thing, but a former bandmate collected them and was positively crazy about the brand (which is the only reason I even know what that thing is )

although, when I miraculously found my Virtuoso in the depths of a Korean guitar market, similar flags were raised in my mind. When I described how rare the guitar was to my dad, he immediately warned me that it could be forged. This was Asia, after all. But you'd have to be pretty loopy to try to forge something like a Virtuoso to be so indistinguishable from the real thing

[Michael_B]

I'm surprised that it's economical to counterfeit Schecter PTs. Or is it that PTs don't differ from Fender dimensions and routing?

[Caddie]

Hmmmm.....he goes by Ken, eh? He could be another fake, an agent of North Korea, Ken Jong-un. Inbred disgraced brother of Kim Jong-un.

Cheers!

caddie

[kizanski]

He's wanting to know how you knew it was a fake so he can fix that and put it back on ebay.

That never occurred to me. I'm clearly not as savvy as I had thought.

where would the serial number be normally?

It would be where they put it, but it being one number after Pete's should have scared me off of it, but instead it did the opposite.

I'm surprised that it's economical to counterfeit Schecter PTs. Or is it that PTs don't differ from Fender dimensions and routing?

Again, this was how I talked myself into it. Why forge a Schecter? Surely there are more expensive, more well-known brands/models to fake, right?

Hmmmm.....he goes by Ken, eh? He could be another fake, an agent of North Korea, Ken Jong-un. Inbred disgraced brother of Kim Jong-un.

ALSO had not occurred to me...

[Steve Haynie]

Tell him there should have been a pencil mark with a smiley face and your initials. It will be like he is passing along your special warning to others.

[Ting Ho Dung]

He's wanting to know how you knew it was a fake so he can fix that and put it back on ebay.

That never occurred to me. I'm clearly not as savvy as I had thought.

Things like that normally don't occur to me either. I guess I'm just in a wonderful holiday mood.

[TBP]

On the forging a Schecter it initially seems dumb, but I'll guess that these people have figured out that there are a lot of guides, videos, etc., on fake Gibsons, Fenders and PRSs. But there are other desirable guitars with comparatively few people able to immediately spot anomalies. And that he just happens to play the uneducated seller but gives a serial one from the most highly valued guitar of that type is pretty devious. And the way he goes about mentioning it ensures transactions will take place outside of eBay. At least you used regular PayPal and got your money back, and it seems the seller was aware we would lose any dispute and likely did not want any further scrutiny. If you had used PayPal gift I suspect your correspondence would have been much different.

[kizanski]

If you had used PayPal gift I suspect your correspondence would have been much different.

I have no doubt.

[serial]

I'm not a fan of Schecter stuff (especially anything they've done since 1986), but the ORIGINAL early 80s PTs/Saturns are usually well above average. I've owned two from the early DFW days (84/85) and they blow away even the current Schecter USA CS stuff away and don't suffer from the ugly headstock issue or crazy prices. The problem is finding them.

[Ting Ho Dung]

On the forging a Schecter it initially seems dumb, but I'll guess that these people have figured out that there are a lot of guides, videos, etc., on fake Gibsons, Fenders and PRSs. But there are other desirable guitars with comparatively few people able to immediately spot anomalies. And that he just happens to play the uneducated seller but gives a serial one from the most highly valued guitar of that type is pretty devious. And the way he goes about mentioning it ensures transactions will take place outside of eBay. At least you used regular PayPal and got your money back, and it seems the seller was aware we would lose any dispute and likely did not want any further scrutiny. If you had used PayPal gift I suspect your correspondence would have been much different.

^^^Well said.

But you know what really depresses me is these are actual human beings who would rather make a few bucks by taking someones hard earned dollars than earning it themselves. Where is the most basic human conscience that I have been lead to believe exists in most everyone? What else are they forging other than guitars? And, are they (this seller) making the forgeries themselves or are they buying them in bulk from the shop around the corner? Sounds like a job for Dateline.

[it's me HHB]

I've had an A series strat for the last 15 years, paid $150. Ebony board, sweet guitar. Its the weird blk trem w fine tuners, never had the arm. I think its an easy guitar to fake. Could it simply be someone doing a tribute build? I built a blackie strat that has a logo and all. Not trying to fool anyone, guess I should tell the heirs lol

[serial]

The birdseye neck was the thing that was the biggest head scratcher.

[Sugartune]

Yesh. Sorry to hear that. I have a very dumb (did I say very dumb? I meant really, really f**king dumb), but somewhat related story to share. It's just a whole lot dumber. It's so dumb and I'm so dumb...

The first week I was at my current job, I was walking around outside taking a look at the parking lot. A dude in an SUV pulls up and asks if I'm interested in any Armani jackets. He was a sales rep and was heading back to Italy, but did not want to pay the import taxes to bring the samples back, etc.

1st of all, leather is not my thing. At least not that much. I'll take it in a shoe, wallet or belt (or pant .

2nd of all, Armani isn't my thing. I'm just not that fancy.

3rd, he says he's heading back to the airport to fly back to Italy, but his car is not a rental. Which had me thinking....

4th, he says each jacket is worth $1500-1800 but will sell the lot of 3 to me for $800

5th, I said no. I don't want any jackets.

6th, he says well I need to go and I can't take these. What can you do?

I say "How's $300 sound?" Thinking he wouldn't accept. Then he does. Now I'm screwed. Logic flies out the window.

I'm thinking (FOR SOME REASON!!!), well I guess I could sell them and buy some gear. OK!

I go to an ATM, it'll only let me pull out $200. I go back, tell him and he says. OK!

Peels out of the lot. I've got three pleather Armano Exghance jackets and the immediate feeling of being a total wad.

My problem is having too much faith in other people, but there were also obvious warning signs I ignored.

The three jackets sit in a wad in the back of my office closet. A constant reminder of my idiocy and a need to question everything!

[Steve Haynie]

Yesh. Sorry to hear that. I have a very dumb (did I say very dumb? I meant really, really f**king dumb), but somewhat related story to share. It's just a whole lot dumber. It's so dumb and I'm so dumb...

Never post anything about yourself that starts that way.

eBay the jackets with an accurate description and get back some of your money.

[serial]

EBay won't permit sale of forgeries

[Sugartune]

I'd rather keep them to remind me of this naive incident. It's so dumb that I feel I deserve to continually remind myself of it.

I may actually just donate them to goodwill. They are still functional...

[DaveL]

Once fell for that old scam when I was a kid (gold cross) when I got home and bit it, it left teeth marks.

was a great lesson to do never do business with people selling crap in parking lots.

btw.. I don't know schecters very well, but in seeing some of the hijinks that regularly

go in the the charvel world, the birdseye might have have made me think it was

a nicely done parts build.

[mrjamiam]

He's wanting to know how you knew it was a fake so he can fix that and put it back on ebay.

That never occurred to me. I'm clearly not as savvy as I had thought.

Things like that normally don't occur to me either. I guess I'm just in a wonderful holiday mood.

The wonder and power of the internet is that it can put you in touch with people all over the world that you would never have otherwise had the opportunity to meet. The problem is that not all of them are people you'd want to meet, and at those distances, it's hard to tell.

I like the HFC, and I like seeing the familiar handles pop up with new posts. I've had a few transactions here, and all of them went great. But I remind myself that I've only actually met one HFC member, and one (different) HFC members's wife in person (relax guys, not at the same time ).

Then when I get out to eBay or craigslist, it's all strangers. Same thing with dating websites, which unfortunately I find myself using (some choose bachelorhood, others have it thrust upon them). All those places are mixtures of genuine and deceitful, and unfortunately the deceitful seem to tend to be pretty energetic - they are damned prompt in replying to contacts, unlike the general population.

So my antennae are always up, scanning in the background for indications of deceit. And when I think I see it, I drop out of communication without pointing out what it was that made me run. I figure at that point, the likelihood of there being a genuine person on the other end is much reduced, and their possible disappointment is well counterbalanced by not teaching the deceitful ones to up their game and hide their tells. Those tells are very useful for the rest of us who want to get what we are looking for without wasting our scarce resources.

[cmatthes]

I'm not a fan of Schecter stuff (especially anything they've done since 1986), but the ORIGINAL early 80s PTs/Saturns are usually well above average. I've owned two from the early DFW days (84/85) and they blow away even the current Schecter USA CS stuff away and don't suffer from the ugly headstock issue or crazy prices. The problem is finding them and making sure they aren't forgeries.

* Edited *

[MCChris]

Why make a fake Schecter? Kizanski bought it, didn't he? You think he's the only one on the planet who's susceptible?

[Boomerang~Junkie]

Just to put things in perspective - somewhere around 40% of China's GDP is directly derived from the manufacturing and sales of knocked off (fakes) products. I can't recall the exact number, but it is staggering. Most of the higher end knockoffs are exported to the US and the UK. The lower quality junk goes to Africa and Central America.

Their government is fully aware and condones it. If they made any genuine attempts to stop their knock-off industry it would very likely collapse their entire economy.

Think of how the counterfeiters went down to faking 20's rather than 100's since they were all closely scrutized and penned. Now even those get penned. They can and will knock off anything marketable that has a decent margin.

It is a "buyer beware" market now, that's one of the many reasons why this place is so special.