<gasp!> Have I become a cork sniffer?

[sixesandsevens]

What I'm taking from all of this is that it's largely subjective, which is kinda what I imagined it would be.

Please allow me to disagree. For me it's pretty objective. Above the 2.5K barrier it becomes cork-sniffing all the way. As far as you have a decent wooden frame (which nowadays it's not hard to find in many import lines) you can easily have a quality instrument for less than 1K.

I think the "2.5k" barrier part is what moves from person to person based on what they've come to expect. In that regard, I agree with diablo175 that what constitutes the cork-sniffing altitude is subjective.

It's kind of like how anyone driving slower than me is clearly a lousy driver and anyone driving faster than me is clearly an idiot.

[crunchee]

Hamers have spoiled me.

Then again, so has finding the occasional beat-up example for Tree Fitty...which is pretty much mostly a memory now.

[diablo175]

What I'm taking from all of this is that it's largely subjective, which is kinda what I imagined it would be.

Please allow me to disagree. For me it's pretty objective. Above the 2.5K barrier it becomes cork-sniffing all the way. As far as you have a decent wooden frame (which nowadays it's not hard to find in many import lines) you can easily have a quality instrument for less than 1K.

Sure, you can disagree. But you're missing my point; as someone pointed out above- carefully hand crafted axes with superior build materials have a greater likelihood of being (and remaining) better guitars than mass produced, lower end imports. Slapping on a new set of pick ups or replacing the pots, or bridge will not necessarily make a lower cost guitar as good as say, a custom guitar. I never set a price point as a cutoff for what is high end and what is cork sniff-ery.

However, since you wish to bring up price point, I'll agree with you that anything over 2.5 G's is likely not going to be markedly better than the >2.5 G model. Unless you want certain specs unavailable on a pro mod. Well, then it becomes more valuable to the individual by virtue of the fact that it has THEIR specs on it now and perhaps is worth the extra 500- 1000. Case in point- I absolutely CANNOT get along with the 3 way Strat style switches on Calis. To get a factory toggle style switch (and a 2 H config) I had to order it custom. Sure, there were other options: just don't buy the guitar or mod an existing one where in I end up dropping a fair amount of coin to have it done professionally (factor in a new finish to keep it looking original and shiny and you're talking close to the coin a custom order would run.) If THAT'S cork sniffing, I'm guilty. You gotta pay to have it your way. If that's important to YOU, you'll do it. That's the subjective part.

[tomteriffic]

Other than being old enough to have owned or played the Holy Grails when they were just "used guitars", I'm completely unqualified on the subject. But I'm going to spout off anyway.

I'd fall into the camp that says that quality materials and superior craftsmanship will be more likely to produce an exceptionally good instrument. That said, as some have noted, now and again you stumble on a cheapie that is just punching way above its weight. I've been through a mess of those, just because they were fun/funky/worth a try at the price. I still have a couple, even. But a lot of them were pound puppies and moved on eventually. Still, they were pretty doggone good for what they were. And that, right there, is the qualifier. Sure I've had a couple of dud Hamers, but that was more often a case of it not meeting my particular needs, rather than it being an actual "bad" piece.

I usually take 5 guitars to a gig, two acoustics and three electrics. Of the seven or eight likely suspects to be dragged out on any given night, only one cost me more than $1,100 and it's an acoustic. And that's a whole 'nother kettle of worms.

[zorrow]

OK, it's pretty subjective then. I think you guys got a point -or two or three.

But let me tell you something:

I got two damn good MIK Hoyer Arrow Deluxe guitars. Got them for less than 400 each. They look and play great, the neck-through config is stable as hell and I just put Manlius Fat Dianes on their bridges and changed the pots to high-end ones (plus their config to Vol-Vol instead of Vol-Tone).

Now those two are pure tone machines for around 500 each. If I ever put jumbo stainless steel frets on them, I'd get two perfect rock ladies for a fraction of what a boutique guitar costs.

But there's more. I own an Epi 7-string V. Once I put the right pups on it, I prefer playing that one to my Gibby 7-string V. The Epi just offers that "slam" tone of Steve Harris at its lower register, mixed with a razor-sharp "chug". The Gibby is a good riffing machine too, but the Epi (300 used) just feels right. Go figure!

[diablo175]

To be clear, Zorrow, I'm not dissing <1000 guitars or even imports as some of the ESP's, Ibby's and the MIJ Jacksons (back in the day) were every bit as high quality as their made-in-USA counterparts. And to further illustrate my point, I've owned a metric shit-ton of lower price point imports and used mid-lines, because frankly, it was all I could afford back then. Some of them just flat out fucking rocked! But when I compare the multitude of those to the relatively few "cork sniffing" customs and one-off's, there's little doubt in my mind which was better in my experience- I still own the superior performing, built ones.

[ArnieZ]

The essence of this thread is what drew me to Hamer, which is quality components, wood, and craftsmanship yielding a great instrument. Not to mention at largely a fair price. The rest of the discussion holds true to almost any enthusiast group be it cars, cameras, Hi Fi etc. It has always been the case that at a certain point the cost becomes disproportionate to the improvement. Where you set that bar can become subjective and also a function of how deep your pockets are. People have their individual tastes and agendas for what they buy and what they bring to gigs. Uncle Greg takes his Schecter to his gigs but has spoken to me about how fine the Hubers are, and he was sincere. Different strokes for different folks, but if it's customization or the best of the best, you gotta be willing to pay the price. Only the individual can decide if it's worth it.

ArnieZ

[T-51Fred]

Boy, I've been around the block on this one. Modded many cheap guitars with high end parts and believed I had transformed the scrap wood into a tone monster. When I bought my first master built guitar, the T-51F, I knew I had wasted a small fortune and gotten no where. When I got my first over the top high end guitar, a Jarrett Zaffiro, I was blown out of the water. I bought it to flip, but when I came upstairs after trying it out even my wife said, "there's no way your selling that!" There are no exceptions or freak bits of wood that can bring a cheap guitar up to that level of craftsmanship or playability. That being said, I'm putting lollar imperials in a First Act Me701. What the heck--it's a cool guitar.

[Feynman]

Last week I played a Benedetto that had me wondering if I could do without my car. I've never played a classical under $2500 that I thought was anything special, but I have played some that were absolutely pure magical instruments. I've never heard a D28 that sounds like my friend's Collings. I don't believe this is corksniffery - I think the differences in sound quality would smack you over the head even if you are nearly deaf.

I realize of course that you are talking about solid body rock instruments in this Great USA-Canada Goateed Metalist Debate, but I had to find a reason to mention the Benedetto somewhere anyway. The Monaco III has sounded sort of lifeless since that moment.

[crunchee]

Last week I played a Benedetto that had me wondering if I could do without my car. I've never played a classical under $2500 that I thought was anything special, but I have played some that were absolutely pure magical instruments. I've never heard a D28 that sounds like my friend's Collings. I don't believe this is corksniffery - I think the differences in sound quality would smack you over the head even if you are nearly deaf.

I realize of course that you are talking about solid body rock instruments in this Great USA-Canada Goateed Metalist Debate, but I had to find a reason to mention the Benedetto somewhere anyway. The Monaco III has sounded sort of lifeless since that moment.

This is why I don't shop for, or pick up, or play, nice yet expensive stuff. I always end up wanting to take it home.

[T-51Fred]

I couldn't even pick up a Benedetto. It would haunt me the rest of my life.

[crunchee]

+1! Anybody here see this article in Premier Guitar? I think Feynman and a few others here at the HFC have mentioned this before, about how much 'classical' instruments (including, but not only, guitars) can cost in comparison to electric guitarists' gear:

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/20364-spoiled-guitarists-that-guitar-costs-emhowem-much?page=1

[TBP]

Last week I played a Benedetto that had me wondering if I could do without my car. I've never played a classical under $2500 that I thought was anything special, but I have played some that were absolutely pure magical instruments. I've never heard a D28 that sounds like my friend's Collings. I don't believe this is corksniffery - I think the differences in sound quality would smack you over the head even if you are nearly deaf.

I realize of course that you are talking about solid body rock instruments in this Great USA-Canada Goateed Metalist Debate, but I had to find a reason to mention the Benedetto somewhere anyway. The Monaco III has sounded sort of lifeless since that moment.

About a year and a half ago I came across a used Collings OM1. Well, now I own a Collings OM1. It was a great deal but still more than twice what I paid for any other guitar (and about six times what I paid for my first). So I feel a little guilty about having it, as I think it deserves a much better player. Playing it makes does make about any day better, and I'm glad I have it after today. It also has almost no ornamentation and is one of the most well-crafted anythings I've ever held.

[jisham]

Meh, play what makes you happy...and if along the way, what you spent makes you feel better, have at it. In the end, if you're a gigging musician, no one in the audience really cares, except other guitarists. I have a killer Gibson R8 that I absolutely love and I have cheap ass MIM Fender Cabronita that I love even more.

[hamerhead]

..... The Monaco III has sounded sort of lifeless since that moment.

Dibs.

[T-51Fred]

TBP, I have the same guilt about the Jarrett I have. I worry that if the next young, impoverished Joe Pass comes over to jam one day with his mangled Dean twangbasher I'll be forced to do the right thing. Tell him if he works really, really hard that one day he too would have enough credit to buy something he can't afford.

[Feynman]

Meh, play what makes you happy...

Yeah, that too.

[JohnnyB]

Original Teles and Strats were meant to be cheap guitars that anyone could afford, slapped together on an assembly line. They are now 'Holy Grails'. I always thought it a bit odd that so many boutique builders chase that.

Relatively speaking, early Fenders weren't really that cheap, and weren't much less money than the setneck Gibsons. I think that when introduced the Strat went for around $250, which translates into $2100 in today's money.

There are other traits of pre-CBS Fenders that are considered boutiquey today. First is that the early Fenders were made from an abundance of wide-plank old growth wood that we can only dream of today--just about everything was one-piece well-seasoned, ash or alder. Second, Leo's modest assessments notwithstanding, by today's standards they were hand-built instruments with the help of power machines--band saws, belt sanders, etc. Still, the necks were hand-shaped by holding the wood up against large belt sanders; USA G&Ls are still made this way. Pickups were wound with the help of a winding machine, but the wire was guided by hand, resulting in "scatter-wound" pickups which reduced inductance compared to the later, more orderly machine-wound pickups.

With the advent of the Stratocaster, production was separated into three sub-assembly specialties--bodies, necks, and pickguard/electronics. Each was attended to by an individual or small team, so each of those components was largely handbuilt, and the production efficiency came from producing the three guitar components simultaneously.

No green wood, no planking of multiple small pieces of wood, no CNC, no machine-wound pickups, no machine-set frets. That accounts for some of the current price; the other part being the attraction to own a piece of American rock'n'roll history.

If anything cuts through the mystique to arrive at an honest price/performance ratio, it would be the current G&L USA models, which are made much the same way the pre-CBS Fenders were made, largely by hand with the help of band-saws, jigs, and large belt sanders. For about $1200-2000 you can get a killer instrument with excellent woods, pickups, hardware, fit, finish, tone, and playability that stops just short of terminal anal-retentive perfectionism. And really, I've never found any flaws in any of the seven G&Ls I've owned over the years.

[Feynman]

I agree with that too. People sometimes slag Fender as cheaper working man assembly line stuff, which only goes so far. Who had better quality than Leo? Certainly he came up with some production efficiencies, but that stuff was top notch. Compare those old amps and guitars with the other crap people could buy. The internals of those amplifiers were real works of art, and the cabinets too, and the designs themselves. he was boutique before it was cool.

[dragan]

the term cork sniffer used to mean anyone who thrived on elitism , I think recently its used more to denote" that guy bought something I cant afford & hes sucks for it" . ........leo 's thing was practicality , form follows function .musicians liked his guitars because they could fix just about everything themselves and the sound cut though the band . Ive been on the G&L bandwagon since I bought my first f100 in 1980 or 81 . the music store I worked at took on the line as soon as they came out . I also had a conversation with Leo about the 3 bolt vs 4 bolt neck and he was a firm believer in the 3 bolt claiming it to be more stable than the 4 bolt ( for whatever thats worth ).

[diablo175]

Yeah Dragan, the context I understood it to have and the one I intended, is the elitist mindset. Snobbery. Validating one's worth by possessing expensive things...

[dragan]

i'd say your not ,regarding your original post ,you seem to be a pretty full time musician & theyre usually mutually exclusive due to lack of funds ! I would like to be ! but have a lack of funding as well . edited to say : I understand & support a musician spending as much as possible ( often every penny they have ) for his / her instrument.

[tbonesullivan]

way too many variables to make that kind of generalization. also depends on what you define as good or better.

Above a certain level though, you are talking about diminishing returns.

[specialk]

[Drendino]

OMG, THAT IS HYSTERICAL!!!!