repainting a guitar= diminishing the tone?

[diablo175]

Contemplating repainting a farily dinged up Diablo but want to go from the stock translucent lacquer stain to an opaque airbrushed design (i.e. white primer & multiple applications of enamel/acrylic, nitrocellulous???) The paint, along with some deftly applied filler will hopefully eliminate most of the dings.

Have heard that the more opaque paint treatment robs the guitar of some of it's tone. While a Diablo is not exactly a tonewood dependant guitar, still don't want to markedly diminish any of it's tonal attributes. Any truth to the statement re: paint and tone?

[G Man]

I did not notice any tonal loss on my Blitz when I had murkat add a few coats of nitro. Of course, it may depend on who's doing the work.

[gtone]

The guys who refin will no doubt chime in here, but have always been of the understanding that lacquers, particularly nitro-based, allow the wood to "breath" more than other finishes. Not sure on the opacity factor of undercoats, though.

[Stike]

The guys who refin will no doubt chime in here, but have always been of the understanding that lacquers, particularly nitro-based, allow the wood to "breath" more than other finishes. Not sure on the opacity factor of undercoats, though.

I've heard Terry McInturff say publically and privately that it's not the material that has an effect on tone but the film thickness of the material. John Suhr has been pretty vocal in his opinions of the nitro.lets wood "breath" claim. I think the opinions of those two are good enough. In my own experiences the best sounding guitar I own and Brooks will back me up has polyester sealer and acrylic urethane topcoats. The top also has a flake finish. My PBR Tele required a shit ton of clear urethane to bury the wallpaper on the top, Acoustically it's really loud and resonant and plugged in it will take your head off.

For what your are wanting to do I doubt you'll hear any difference before and after. For artwork I'd think you would want a catalyzed urethane topcoat. It's water clear and doesn't yellow and crack.

[Jem]

Personally, i think short of dipping it in concrete you won't notice the difference - obviously unless your on Harmony Central or TGP, in which case you'll be able to tell when Mrs Miggins five streets away has turned on her refrigerator.

[zenmindbeginner]

I will say that acoustic guitars have the most to gain from a thin finish.

The top vibrating is what produces much of the tone of an acoustic guitar, so maybe a thicker finish could hamper it's vibrational ability. My 70's Japaphones have extremely thin finishes and sound great. My Ovations have mile thick finishes and sound a lot worse than the Japaphones... but that could have everything to do with the back and sides being made out of plastic. The Japaphones breathe where the Ovations just sort of plunk the notes out. You can really hear the sound of my skin during fingerpicking on the Japaphones but the Ovations yield nada. Of course, these are acoustic guitars both made out of extremely different materials.

So, does the top move on an electric guitar when the strings vibrate? No.

Do the backs and sides contribute to enhancing the sound waves bouncing around the inside of the body? No, because the top does not vibrate and it is a solid hunk of wood(s).

So how would the thickness of the finish affect the tone of a solid body if there is no amplification of a waveform caused by the vibration of the top bouncing around inside of a hollow chamber? It doesn't

Now, hollow body electrics that contain pickups with low inductance(s) and output(s) could possibly have the finish thickness affect the tone since the top does vibrate with the sides and back both amplifying the waveforms that bounce around the hollow chamber with the low inductance pickups picking this sound up because they are more sensitive to nuance.

Finish thickness is not a tonal factor in most solid bodied electrics. Slap high output pickups in there and the effect has even a more diminished role... add a Floyd and fuggetaboutit.

[diablo175]

I will say that acoustic guitars have the most to gain from a thin finish.

The top vibrating is what produces much of the tone of an acoustic guitar, so maybe a thicker finish could hamper it's vibrational ability. My 70's Japaphones have extremely thin finishes and sound great. My Ovations have mile thick finishes and sound a lot worse than the Japaphones... but that could have everything to do with the back and sides being made out of plastic. The Japaphones breathe where the Ovations just sort of plunk the notes out. You can really hear the sound of my skin during fingerpicking on the Japaphones but the Ovations yield nada. Of course, these are acoustic guitars both made out of extremely different materials.

So, does the top move on an electric guitar when the strings vibrate? No.

Do the backs and sides contribute to enhancing the sound waves bouncing around the inside of the body? No, because the top does not vibrate and it is a solid hunk of wood(s).

So how would the thickness of the finish affect the tone of a solid body if there is no amplification of a waveform caused by the vibration of the top bouncing around inside of a hollow chamber? It doesn't

Now, hollow body electrics that contain pickups with low inductance(s) and output(s) could possibly have the finish thickness affect the tone since the top does vibrate with the sides and back both amplifying the waveforms that bounce around the hollow chamber with the low inductance pickups picking this sound up because they are more sensitive to nuance.

Finish thickness is not a tonal factor in most solid bodied electrics. Slap high output pickups in there and the effect has even a more diminished role... add a Floyd and fuggetaboutit.

And I am ALL about Floyds so... fuggetaboutit!

[cmatthes]

Unless you're Eric Johnson or a dog, you won't notice the difference.

If you say you do, you're probably lying, or as Jemmie so accurately stated, an internet armchair expert from HC or TGP.

Puh-leeese.

Electric guitars also don't "breathe". That's just weird.

[gtone]

Electric guitars also don't "breathe". That's just weird.

Last person to consider myself a TGP cork-sniffer type, but wood being an organic material most certainly does "breath" in the sense that it seasons as it ages and takes on completely different physical qualities over time. For a graphic display of this, you only have to come to my office bldg and try doing work on the petrified century-old pine and oak woodwork (very dry climate in these parts). Drill bits dull before your eyes, sawcuts smolder for 2-3 days and sparks fly from nails attempted to be driven into it - pretty amazing stuff actually! It's difficult to imagine that the process of aging couldn't possibly translate into some meaningful sonic differences in wood either, resonance being one.

Moot point tho' - OP has already stated he's all about Floyded guitars which suggests he likely plays with enough gain that the vast majority of players wouldn't even be able to discern any difference in the materials used in the guitar let alone the finish.

[murkat]

To OP, na. the wood is done all it is going to do. graphics, etc. will not be dentramental.

[diablo175]

Electric guitars also don't "breathe". That's just weird.

Last person to consider myself a TGP cork-sniffer type, but wood being an organic material most certainly does "breath" in the sense that it seasons as it ages and takes on completely different physical qualities over time. For a graphic display of this, you only have to come to my office bldg and try doing work on the petrified century-old pine and oak woodwork (very dry climate in these parts). Drill bits dull before your eyes, sawcuts smolder for 2-3 days and sparks fly from nails attempted to be driven into it - pretty amazing stuff actually! It's difficult to imagine that the process of aging couldn't possibly translate into some meaningful sonic differences in wood either, resonance being one.

Moot point tho' - OP has already stated he's all about Floyded guitars which suggests he likely plays with enough gain that the vast majority of players wouldn't even be able to discern any difference in the materials used in the guitar let alone the finish.

Point taken re: gain but I would respectfully disagree- I can and do notice subtle differences in tone between guitars w/the same amp settings and pups. Even with guitars sharing the same wood type i.e. alder, mahogony or maple. (And anyone who knows me can attest that I am so far from the cork sniffing variety that it would be laughable to even suggest it) I can't honestly say that it is the tone wood that accounts for these sonic variations but I do hear them. I am only interested in making certain I'm not deadening any nuances or dynamics that might otherwise come thru. Sounds like that's not a major issue. Having said this- it's time to crank the mutha up and let 'er rip.

[Brooks]

In my own experiences the best sounding guitar I own and Brooks will back me up has polyester sealer and acrylic urethane topcoats. The top also has a flake finish.

is that the silver sparkle tele, or the ESP flames? whatabout the p90 gadow, that also sounds badass.

[Stike]

In my own experiences the best sounding guitar I own and Brooks will back me up has polyester sealer and acrylic urethane topcoats. The top also has a flake finish.

is that the silver sparkle tele, or the ESP flames? whatabout the p90 gadow, that also sounds badass.

P90 Gadow, I'll bring that to the next practice.

[kizanski]

Electric guitars also don't "breathe". That's just weird.

I always thought this was BS and bought into the whole "choice of wood and fingerboard" as if it were the end all/be all of tone.

Then I realized how much of one's "tone" is constructed of three things: fingers, pickups, and amps. We can debate the order in another thread.

One of my best sounding guitars was a NAMM show Trussart that I had years ago, and like Matthes said, it not breathe at all.

[cynic]

My assumption has always been a poly finished guitar would sound the same in 20+ years, where a nitro finished guitar might not. Neither will make an overnight difference in sound.

[zorrow]

I'm about to believe tone has A LOT to do with the way you play, more than with anything else. When I switch guitars I still sound basically the same --a bit more "focused" on that one, a bit "darker" on that other one... but it's always me! Even when I play through different rigs, I still have the same "core" tone.

This leads me to think refinishing a guitar will make no noticeable difference at all.

[Feynman]

A new finish helps to contain the tone inside the body, trapping it and pissing it off as it bounces around looking for an escape. When it finally finds those pickups, watch out!

Guitars like the Newport offer two convenient tonal side exits, providing a more stately and elegant tone.

[3of5]

I disagree, Tonal side exits have not helped my Newport. My tone is evidently still very pissed off as it leaves my amp, as demonstrated by the slamming of doors in my house by other family members when I start to play. Perhaps I need a backless guitar, or headphones.

[backinit]

Wood species, electronics, pickups, amp all have significantly more to do with tone than finish.

If you will like it more redone in whatever finish then do it.

[diablo175]

Wood species, electronics, pickups, amp all have significantly more to do with tone than finish.

If you will like it more redone in whatever finish then do it.

Heh heh- He said "wood species" Heh heh

[tobereeno]

maybe it's my imagination, but my Centaura that's been refinished with just a couple coats of natural nitro seems to just resonate better. But there are many, many factors involved, and the age of the wood seems to play a major, if not primary, role.

There was once a time when it was thought that wood had zero effect on electric guitar tone. And I'm sure there are some old enough here to remember the brass hardware fad...

[kizanski]

maybe it's my imagination...

Yes, it's your imagination.

[tobereeno]

maybe it's my imagination...

Yes, it's your imagination.

well, my imagination's pretty vivid!

[tobereeno]

ok, so if finish doesn't matter, then why are nitrocellulose lacquers valued over cheapo import urethane (or whatever it is) finishes? Import finishes come out very shiny, are easy to apply obviously, are cheap, and polish very well; they're just thick as hell.

[kizanski]

maybe it's my imagination...

Yes, it's your imagination.

well, my imagination's pretty vivid!

I'm sure that it is! I have my moments as well.

ok, so if finish doesn't matter, then why are nitrocellulose lacquers valued over cheapo import urethane (or whatever it is) finishes? Import finishes come out very shiny, are easy to apply obviously, are cheap, and polish very well; they're just thick as hell.

Because vintage nuts and cork-sniffers (I was each of them at one time, so I'm not throwing rocks here) have to defend their uber expensive gear.

Jeff Healey used a Squire Strat.

Jimi used whatever POS was laying around the studio when he recorded Red House.

There was no "super accurate" Buzz Feiten tuning setups in existence during all of that classic rock by which we all model our "tones". What a shame Clapton, West, Beck and Jimi were all playing out of tune (well, Jimi DID play out of tune a lot, but...).

Anyway my point is, spend enough on a guitar and you WILL hear the difference.

Whether it's there or not.

[Feynman]

Jeff Healey used a Squire Strat.

I've read that he used tungsten pickup screws backed off one turn - can you confirm?