High Gain / Low Gain Pickups

[Ting Ho Dung]

What's the difference between high gain pickups played with less preamp gain and low gain pickups with more preamp gain? It seems to me if you are looking for a driven tone it doesn't matter. If you aren't getting the tone from your PAF pickups all you need to do is add some sort of drive or crank up the gain on the preamp. On the other hand you may not need the added pedal or as much gain if you have a high gain pickup. So what is all the fuss about changing pickups?

[Bennyboy-UK]

Oooh this will be a great one I'll be making notes

[carfish7]

My experience says you can make a low "gain" pickup rock hard with amp/pedal distortion and keep more "tonal content" (whatever the hell that means), while a "high gain" pickup will often sound more focused and maybe even get muddy with too much gain. I am firmly in the "drive the low-output pickups downstream" camp myself. NOT a big fan of mega-output pickups.

Besides, try rolling off the volume on those overwound jobbies or try and get a nice clean sound..........

Mega-gain pickups have their place and sound great in the right application, they just never struck me as subtle or versatile, but that is likely not the point now is it?

[The Shark]

So many variables. So little time.

[Victor (Fret Friend)]

I personally don't like cheap pickups ie (cheap/weak) stock or Duncan Designed but saying that, I really like stock Peavey and stock Ibanez pickups. I've just ripped 2 x DD h/b's outta my Samick (Korean) Rockwell Explorer and am replacing them with GFS (Guitarfetish) Hot PAT [PAF] h/b's. I prefer to use a clean channel on a hybrid or mosfet amp with a pedal for distortion (I play mainly metal/aggressive)...

[coolfeel]

Bartolini pickups are about the only pickups I have ever heard that can do high output with incredible clean tones.

[murkat]

Okay pickup lesson 101, history.

A. Back in the 50's, up to 73 ish,

1, single coils averaged around 5.2 ohm reading.

2, Humbuckers averaged around 7.3< 8.2 ohm readings

B. Back in the 50's, up to 73 ish,

1. (most) Tube and solid state amps did not have master volumes.

and if they did, they sucked.

2. Most pedals for gain, boost, etc. where a unreliable fuzz, treble booster of some type.

Time was around 73ish when pickups where being rewound and wound at a higher ohm reading load

to "push" a amp in to a clipping, distorted load.

Some Amp manufacturers are starting to create a master volume circuit, but they all still sucked.

Late 70's the pickup winders started to manufacture there own pickups, we know them all.

As well, Amps are now being modded by some very talented people.

C. late 70's, early 80's, dawn of high gain amps, following suite a plethra hot rodded guitars, pickups, pedals, etc.

(thanks EVH, RR, MS, Ace, etc, etc,)

Higher ohm load, high gain pickups came from pushing an ordinary amp into saturation, distortion.

High gain pickups loose note definition, clarity, punch, etc.

Lower ohm load, a vintage spec type pickup does not "drive" and amp into saturation, distortion.

Lower gain pickups excel in note definition, clarity, punch, etc.

and there are the known variables in pickups. Magnets, wire, winds, blah,blah,blah.

If you use a HG pup, HG amp, chewy thick mud.

If you use a LG pup, HG amp, chewy thick note definition.

If you use a HG pup, LG amp, Gritty, chewy, greasy grissel, with some clarity.

If you use a LG pup, LG amp, nice cleans, soupy syrup swirly lovely stuff.

something like that.

[Armitage]

I buy pickups because of their tone, not their output, and I love Duncan JBs, DiMarzio Super Distorions, Dean's Baker Acts and Lights Out pickups... with my high gain amps.

[atquinn]

I buy pickups because of their tone, not their output, and I love Duncan JBs, DiMarzio Super Distorions, Dean's Baker Acts and Lights Out pickups... with my high gain amps.

This. Output is no longer a concern in this day and age. Tone and feel (under the conditions you are playing under which will be different for each person) are what is important. And while helpful generalizations can certainly be made when you are talking about high-output vs low-output pickups, they are just that. Finally, please don't ever confuse OHMs with output.

-

Austin

[polara]

+1 on Armitage and Austin. I've got guitars with way hot pickups in terms of the ohm load that are clear and don't drive my amp too crazy hard, and I've used a Tele with a lot of volume and gain. Too many variables in the pickups, setup (my personal geekiness is the wild range of responsiveness you can get from adjusting pickup height) and amps.

[Ting Ho Dung]

Finally, please don't ever confuse OHMs with output.

Austin

I guess I already have. Care to elaborate? Now I am bamboozled.

[gorch]

Okay pickup lesson 101, history. A. Back in the 50's, up to 73 ish,1, single coils averaged around 5.2 ohm reading.2, Humbuckers averaged around 7.3< 8.2 ohm readings B. Back in the 50's, up to 73 ish,1. (most) Tube and solid state amps did not have master volumes.and if they did, they sucked.2. Most pedals for gain, boost, etc. where a unreliable fuzz, treble booster of some type. Time was around 73ish when pickups where being rewound and wound at a higher ohm reading loadto "push" a amp in to a clipping, distorted load.Some Amp manufacturers are starting to create a master volume circuit, but they all still sucked. Late 70's the pickup winders started to manufacture there own pickups, we know them all.As well, Amps are now being modded by some very talented people. C. late 70's, early 80's, dawn of high gain amps, following suite a plethra hot rodded guitars, pickups, pedals, etc.(thanks EVH, RR, MS, Ace, etc, etc,) Higher ohm load, high gain pickups came from pushing an ordinary amp into saturation, distortion.High gain pickups loose note definition, clarity, punch, etc. Lower ohm load, a vintage spec type pickup does not "drive" and amp into saturation, distortion.Lower gain pickups excel in note definition, clarity, punch, etc. and there are the known variables in pickups. Magnets, wire, winds, blah,blah,blah. If you use a HG pup, HG amp, chewy thick mud.If you use a LG pup, HG amp, chewy thick note definition.If you use a HG pup, LG amp, Gritty, chewy, greasy grissel, with some clarity.If you use a LG pup, LG amp, nice cleans, soupy syrup swirly lovely stuff. something like that.

Thanks Jay! You, gritty, chewy, greasy grissel... No... Soupy syrup swirly lovely...

[velorush]

Finally, please don't ever confuse OHMs with output.

Austin

I guess I already have. Care to elaborate? Now I am bamboozled.

From the Master Teacher, Bill Lawrence, even though we (mistakenly) use DC resistance to evaluate pickups all the time.

ETA: more from Dr. Professor Lawrence.

[bubs_42]

I am in the LG Pickups, MG Amp with a slight touch of OD when needed camp.

[AdmiralB]

I guess I already have. Care to elaborate? Now I am bamboozled.

If you're comparing pickups with identical wire, then yes, higher resistance generally means more output, all else equal, because the number of turns of wire is directly proportional to output.

But that's not usually the case.

A simple example is a P90. The 'recipe' from wayback was 5000 turns of 42AWG wire. That works out to somewhere between 7.5K and 8.5K, DCR, depending.

If you replace the 42AWG with 44AWG, the resistance will increase - probably 20% or more. But the output will stay the same (OK, it'll actually decrease a little due to series resistance, but that part probably won't be noticeable to the ear). Tone will change, but voltage output won't.

Replace the 42AWG with 40AWG, resistance will decrease, power will stay the same. Wind more 40AWG so that you're back to 8K or wherever you started - power will increase.

And that's not even considering magnets. A 9K soapbar with A2 magnets is almost certainly less powerful than a 6.5K pickup with big ceramics.

So IF the wire is the same, and IF the magnets are the same - then yes, DCR is a decent proxy for power. A '57 Classic is less powerful than a Classic +, and the DCR is a good representation of the degree, since they're both A2/42AWG. Same with Burstbuckers. Custom Buckers are not only underwound (same wire, but ~7.2K), since they also have A3 magnets they're not directly comparable using only resistance as a metric.

[JohnnyThunders]

Tried a lot of pickups over the years, settled on Peter Florence 59 in my single pup special and the original good wood wcr pickups neck and bridge in my other special. They are both lg Paf style, sound great on my lg Aiken , mg matamoros and hg hovercraft.

[SteveB]

I've migrated away from hot output pickups since amps have more than enough gain. My experience is that lower gain pickups will be more open, less compressed, and have better individual string definition even when the amp is saturated. Obviously there are differences among pickups though.

[AdmiralB]

Pickups don't compress. They send signal to the amp, in a fairly linear (amplitude WRT string excursion) manner.

Different pickups favor different frequencies, are more or less loud...but they don't compress or distort. Something with an active component, like an EMG, could compress/distort if the output approaches the supply voltage, but that would be a pretty tough thing to do with a guitar.

Loud pickups will make the amp compress or distort faster, for sure...but that's a function of how the amp's set up.

[lincsman]

I personally don't like cheap pickups ie (cheap/weak) stock or Duncan Designed but saying that, I really like stock Peavey and stock Ibanez pickups. I've just ripped 2 x DD h/b's outta my Samick (Korean) Rockwell Explorer and am replacing them with GFS (Guitarfetish) Hot PAT [PAF] h/b's. I prefer to use a clean channel on a hybrid or mosfet amp with a pedal for distortion (I play mainly metal/aggressive)...

I Agree The Stock Ibanez Pick ups are very underrated IMHO there great for blues and with the volume down clean up with a soft tone

[seeker]

And yet even more variations on pup construction can have significant effect on output and tone. For HBs, putting more winds on one bobbin than the other will make the pup sound grittier (fuzzy,hairy). Vary the bobbin size; my fave pickups run close to 10k, with a very strong output, but have a perfectly flat eq profile. Clear as a bell.

[Ting Ho Dung]

And yet even more variations on pup construction can have significant effect on output and tone. For HBs, putting more winds on one bobbin than the other will make the pup sound grittier (fuzzy,hairy). Vary the bobbin size; my fave pickups run close to 10k, with a very strong output, but have a perfectly flat eq profile. Clear as a bell.

What brand and model for you then?

[AdmiralB]

For HBs, putting more winds on one bobbin than the other will make the pup sound grittier (fuzzy,hairy).

To me, 'fuzzy' and 'hairy' indicate distortion, which is not something that pickups do. Humbuckers with different numbers of turns on the coils do sound 'different' due to different cancellation properties (they're also a little noisier); DiMarzio patented the process of using the same number of turns, but different wire gauges on the two coils, which has a similar but not totally identical effect.

The bobbin size comment is a good point; Duncan Trembuckers, for example, have longer bobbins than 'regular' humbuckers - so a TB version of a pickup will necessarily have more wire for the same number of turns, and therefore a higher DCR. But the actual output is unchanged.

[seeker]

For HBs, putting more winds on one bobbin than the other will make the pup sound grittier (fuzzy,hairy).

To me, 'fuzzy' and 'hairy' indicate distortion, which is not something that pickups do. Humbuckers with different numbers of turns on the coils do sound 'different' due to different cancellation properties (they're also a little noisier); DiMarzio patented the process of using the same number of turns, but different wire gauges on the two coils, which has a similar but not totally identical effect.

The bobbin size comment is a good point; Duncan Trembuckers, for example, have longer bobbins than 'regular' humbuckers - so a TB version of a pickup will necessarily have more wire for the same number of turns, and therefore a higher DCR. But the actual output is unchanged.

On both points, have a chat with my pickup guy Wolfe MacLeod (Wolfetone). He's wound thousands of pickups have bought quite a few from him. To clarify tho, yes asymmetrical wndings on a pure clean amp setting don't distort. However, they do seem to distort easier and definitely have a hairier quality to them when they do. WRT the bobbin size vs windings/DC resistance, I can only tell you from my personal experience that his Marshallheads are what I described. The output is definitely higher, hitting the preamp harder, but perfectly clear. Like a boost pedal in the chain. Have multiple sets in diff guitars.

[Caddie]

I don't own a resistance-o-meter. I rarely pay to for new pups, only one time I can recall. I bought PhatCats for the Newport. I'll trade for them or get them included in a deal, whatever.

I know I like the sound of PhatCats in the Newport n Artist, WCR Fillmores in the Studio, Fender Texas Specials in my semi-hollow Tele Custom and Lace Sensor Gold in my Strat. I do not like like the Vintage rails in the VintageS, but I really do not like spending money on pickups so I fiddled with the amp knobs, guitar knobs, guitar pre-amp pots, until I found something I liked.

Are those high output or low output pups?

I play thru a Matchless Clubman, or Mesa DC-3 or Fender Hot Rod Deluxe.

Are those high gain or low gain amps?

I don't know if those amps and pups are high gain or low gain, hi output or low output. Based on the info above you can put me in whatever bucket you like. HO/LG, LO/HG.... All I know is I fiddle with all the knobs at my disposal until I get what my ears want to hear. Then I write down the knob settings so I can get back to where I liked it. Pretty scientific, yes?

Cheers

caddie

[AdmiralB]

All I know is I fiddle with all the knobs at my disposal until I get what my ears want to hear.

That's a pretty good way to look at things, I believe. I think 95% of the "wow, these new pickups are great!" factor is really due to the fact that you just put on new strings.

About a year ago I did two pickup tests, for another forum. The first was five PAF-style pickups - a Seth Lover, a '57 Classic, a '57 Classic Plus, a Burstbucker 2, and a Burstbucker 3.

I used the same guitar and the same strings, just lifted the tailpiece and swapped pickups. Recorded each playing the same thing as close to the same as I could, using a low-gain tone setting.

Nobody could really tell any difference. I mean, there some subtleties, but you couldn't really put your finger on them and you'd never be able to pick one out against another. I'm positive that in a true double-blind test none of the winders could pick their own stuff out compared to other similar models.

To reinforce that, I did a second test with a Duncan Blues Saraceno (a slightly hot PAF style, about 9K), a JB, and an EMG 81. These did sound different, and nearly everyone picked out the EMG. But 80% of the participants thought the JB was the PAF.

[Victor (Fret Friend)]

Sensible post ^^^

That said, I just swapped out 2 x Duncan Designed covered chromes for 2 x GFS [GuitarFetish] FAT PAFs Zebra's and I really can tell the difference [and quite a lot]. I paid like $30 for the GFS's on eBay UK and I'll get that back selling the DDs so I'm happy all ways...