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The Hamer of Dishwashers?


Armitage

Question

Posted

Ok, we're looking for a new dishwasher... stainless steel.

First I went into Sears (old habits). Generally, Sears goes to the big manufacturers and orders a ton of a couple models and has a couple things changed. Usually minor things that customers have complained about, like poor rack wheels etc... and has them made with the Kenmore name on them. I can get parts easily and cheaply for the few things I'd bother myself to do. 9 out of 10 times with a dish washer, it's the control board and that's about a hundred or so bucks and 15 minutes to swap (most of that is undoing and keeping track of little screws).

I looked at KitchenAid first. The one I liked was $1700, on sale for $1299... all the features. Expected life... 10 years. Ouch.

With the Kenmore name on it, it's on sale for $999 his week. (these prices are for around here). Expected life... 10 years. Again ouch.

I looked a Bosch next. A big prestige name at this price point. The one with the features we wanted is $1900... Well made and expect a 30% longer life... but lots of complaints about the smell. Bosch units have a capture filter that traps food items that don't get mushy enough to pass. You have to clean out the filter often (effortless, you just have to do it). The KitchenAid and Kenmore only stop bigger items like olive pits etc. The Bosh also holds water in the pump and if you don't use it almost daily the water can go funky. Expected life... 13 years.

I looked at Miele an even more upscale unit... the wife likes that. Miele controls the price... they set the sales. You can't even buy parts. So you know there's a huge markup. But it is a better machine, but it has the same problem the Bosch does for smell, use it or smell it. They also control the installation. You can install it... but the store can't. Miele delivers it from their warehouse to your house, and if it's being installed, they install it. It cost almost twice as much to install a Miele then a Kenmore/Bosch or KitchenAid. That kills me, the water fittings etc are already there. It's not much harder to hook up a dishwasher then a garden hose, OK two garden hoses. Once it's delivered, they should install it for free to say thanks for paying their huge markup... well that's the way I see it.

They all claim to be quiet, but use different ratings, the ones that use dB even do that differently, so you can't really compare across brands, and it's not like they'll run them in the store for you.

At this price point they'll all do a great job washing dishes, I just want the wife happy without being ripped off.

The way I see it I can spend a grand on a Kenmore or two grand for the Bosch or Miele (plus install).

Or lets put it this way, for the same money I can get two Kenmore @ 20 years of expected life, for the price of one Bosch or Miele @ 13 years...

So what's your take? Anyone big into appliances?

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Posted

Miele.

Best, quietest machine you can buy.

I've installed all brands in the 15 years I was in the Plumbing racket, but the Miele is the best.

Posted

FWIW (I am NOT an expert), when ours went out, Consumer Reports had Bosch as a favorite. DId some searching locally and found the best deal at Lowes. (Stainless, not top of the line, but competitive on features, etc) IIRC we paid a good deal under $1k, that being about 1 1/2 years ago.

PS....What is the Hamer of baking soda? Arm & Hamer, of course......

Posted

Is Sears the exclusive Miele distributor of Miele in Canada? Unless you're hooked to a Sears financing bargain, you might find a better price shopping around, especially on Black Friday (does Canada do that?).

You know that Kitchen-Aid, Whirlpool, and Kenmore are all under the same ownership and made at the same factory, right? Kitchen-Aid is a Whirlpool with a stainless tub, solid copper windings on the motor, and a bit more ruggedization throughout. Kenmore is roughly the same with a few features to distinguish it from the others.

I'm not much of a fan of Kenmore anymore. I bought a Kenmore fridge in 2005, thinking it would be well-designed and built like a tank. The first ice-maker didn't work and I had to get it replaced under the rather short warranty. The tracks that hold the crispers and meat drawer in place broke and they now just function as plastic slide-in boxes. The doors don't stay closed and there's an annoying beeper to tell me the door's open. That's good in a way, but I'd rather the doors stay closed. Also, sometimes the ice in the bin melts part way and refreezes into a block. Then I have to throw out the ice and start over. Granted, I'm talking fridges instead of DWs, but my point is I don't think you can take Kenmore appliance quality for granted anymore.

It appears that so far Kiz is the only true expert in this thread. If the warranty looks good, Miele looks like a good bet. You might check with Lowe's and Home Depot to see if they carry them at a better price (or whatever's equivalent in Canada).

Posted

Those are some expensive dishwashers. Do they each have a rusty trombone setting or something?

Posted

In the event you're interested in personal experience rather than any expert advice (cause I got none of that), I vote NO on Bosch. I went that route 6 or 7 years ago to replace a decade old machine (forget the brand). 3 years ago I went with Kitchen Aid when the pump in the Bosch went out. It may have been repairable, but my wife and I had both been so displeased with its performance we embraced the opportunity to get rid of it. I washed poorly, it dried poorly, but it was really quiet and pleasant to look at. You're right, they can also get a little funky, but cleaning them out is less than a 5 minute job and running regularly keeps the water fresh.

We loved the Bosch in the store, but we never settled into a good way to load it to wash as many dishes as our previous (or latest) washer, and it never cleaned as well or left the glasses as sparkly as either of the others. It wasn't a top of the line model, if memory serves it was in the $700-$800 neighborhood, but in 2006 I could still that "yeah, but that's US dollars" and it meant something :)

Our current washer is a Kitchen Aid (again somewhere in the same $700-$800 neighborhood), purchased from Sears but installed by a plumber that wasn't asking me to bend over the machine when discussing installation costs (as Sears was). The Kitchen Aid has painfully long wash times, but is as quiet as the Bosch and actually cleans the dishes.

Posted

Is Sears the exclusive Miele distributor of Miele in Canada?

No, Sears doesn't even carry Miele, they were just my first stop, but as Miele sets the price (so I'm told), it won't matter where I buy it. For anything else, I'll shop around for price once I figure what I'm getting.

Everyone, including our own kizanski says that Miele is the best at this price point... I guess it just burns my hole to pay twice as much for something that'll last 30% longer. But I've got to keep the dear wife happy, she asks for so little and puts up with me.

Posted

I'll second cynic's experience... up to and including owning a Bosch that's pretty, quiet, and almost completely ineffective. Ours is a mid line I got open box a few years ago for $700 or so installed.

On another note... "Arm and Hamer"... Huhuhuhuhu... ;)

Posted

I bought a Bosch 8 or 9 years ago - the model that was top rated by consumers. It's not as quiet as it used to be, but it still works like new and no problems so far.

Posted

Everyone, including our own kizanski says that Miele is the best at this price point... I guess it just burns my hole to pay twice as much for something that'll last 30% longer. But I've got to keep the dear wife happy, she asks for so little and puts up with me.

Where are you getting these life expectancy figures? If you look at the way Miele controls pricing, parts, and installation, that may be a factor in their longer life expectancy. Sometimes there are tricks or a comprehensive procedure for installation that are missed or ignored by installers. I think the real reason my first icemaker failed is because the instructions say to let the water feed run out for a minute or two to clear it before hooking it up, because waterborne particles can clog the ice maker. My installer didn't do that and considered it a waste of time.

Anyway, the well-built appliances, when kept clean, properly maintained, and operated within their parameters, often far exceed life expectancy. I delivered appliances one summer in college and I couldn't believe some of the Whirlpool and Amana washing machines and refrigerators we encountered that were 25 years old and looked like new.

Posted

Gee, and I was thinking of replacing our 13-year old Maytag... not at these prices... not until it really doesn't work.

We've been very satisfied with the dishwasher (I've replaced a few things along the way including the pump seal, silverware basket and tray rollers), but it continues to effectively clean dishes - lots of them. Now the rubberized coating on the dish trays has been compromised and some of the prongs are rusting at their joints. Given the prices, above, we'll just ride it out.

In the interim since we bought it Maytag has been swallowed up by Whirlpool.

Posted

Velorush, there are plenty of dishwashers that are much less expensive so don't worry. Plenty under $500... but like most things, you get what you pay for...until you hit that curve of diminishing returns...

And JohnnyB I'm getting the life expectancy figures from an assortment of dealers. It seems appliances just aren't built to last like they used to be. My parents had stuff they got used and then kept for 20 years... my first house came with all the old guys appliances and I kept them all for another 10 and replaced them because, well, they were old!

Posted

I bought a Maytag dishwasher in the Fall of 2007. I thought it was one of the last Maytags before the Whirlpool acquisition, but according to Wiki's timeline, Maytag had been pretty much completely absorbed by Whirlpool by then. Whatever the case, I bought a stainless steel tub Maytag dishwasher from Home Depot in Sept. 2007 and it's been fantastic, trouble-free, dead quiet, and most importantly, effective at cleaning. I couldn't believe the price--something like $550 with lots of settings and a stainless tub. You can also save about $100 by not getting a stainless steel front panel. I also like Maytag's very configurable racks, which goes a long way toward getting a d/w to swallow a lot of dish and tableware.

Examples

Posted

We got a Bosch after reading reviews, and while it's quiet and cleans well enough (we rinse everything first anyway), the no-heater type of drying isn't worth a shit. I'll probably get something else next time.

Posted

Bought the most expensive KitchenAid, the local store had to offer, 5+ years ago. Had to replace the computer module about a year in. Otherwise, it has been fine.

Now.. I will say this... anybody that has kids, and buys stainless steel appliances, should have their head examined. I wish somebody had warned me, before I laid out 5 grand on a complete kitchen's worth.

Posted

I'd recommend avoiding Fisher & Paykel. I'm looking for a good excuse to replace mine. Looks cool, and the idea of having two drawers seems like a good one, but it isn't.

Miele makes great vacuum cleaners, so I'm not surprised they make great dishwashers.

Kind of the Huber of dishwashers maybe?

Posted

I'd recommend avoiding Fisher & Paykel.

Hmmm. We love our F&P washer/dryer. Had them coming up on 4 years with no troubles.

Posted

DUHg .

Just ask my wife.

Picked me up used.

Cheap.

Reliable.

Highly underrated.

:D

(edit) sorry reread the OP

DUHg is not stainless

Posted

Bought the most expensive KitchenAid, the local store had to offer, 5+ years ago. Had to replace the computer module about a year in. Otherwise, it has been fine.

Ah! This was where we had a bit of wisdom laid on us and we bit. The dude who sold us our Maytag (an actual Maytag store, the likes of which probably don't exist any more) told us, "the only thing I ever have to replace on dishwashers is the computer control." He recommended we buy the top of the line manual (a dial rather than computer control) unit. We went with that and haven't had a moments problem with it. Others have had to replace the computer control. Don't know if they even make the twisty-dial units any more, but we're a firm believer in avoiding the computer if possible.

Posted

Hi Specialk,

OK, they make a good washer/dryer, but their dishwashers leave a fair amount to be desired. Mine has two drawers, of which only one really works. The idea seemed cool: fill up a drawer, pull dishes out of the other that are clean. (Neither will hold much in the way of pots and pans, which sucks.) More fundamentaly the impeller which seems well designed doesn't have a good screen, so any small hard objects such as a small broken piece of glass will chew it up, after which it won't pump, so it sucks. Also, the damn flip-down racks for the glasses break incredibly easily and are expensive to replace. I've been told by many repairmen that the seals are also a perennial headache, though I haven't had an issue with mine.

The shame of it is all is that it is almost an incredible machine, but it falls short.

Oh well. My brother has a Bosch that he loves, other than the smell.

Posted

I bought a Bosch about 8 years ago mainly because the one I had before that was so loud when it was running you couldn't stand to be in the same room with it (Like some drummers I've played with!) and the Bosch was whisper quiet in comparison. It's still quiet and I've never had any odor issues with it. It doesn't get used much because I don't cook much, but it's never failed to do a good job.

Posted

After reading velorush's post I remembered that Bosch had a control switch module recall/upgrade (push button switches) around 5 years ago . Bosch sent me a notification card to schedule an appointment and a repairman came to the house and installed at no cost. I didn't have any problems with the unit, but technically it has had one repair in eight or nine years of use.

Posted

Bought the most expensive KitchenAid, the local store had to offer, 5+ years ago. Had to replace the computer module about a year in. Otherwise, it has been fine.

Ah! This was where we had a bit of wisdom laid on us and we bit. The dude who sold us our Maytag (an actual Maytag store, the likes of which probably don't exist any more) told us, "the only thing I ever have to replace on dishwashers is the computer control." He recommended we buy the top of the line manual (a dial rather than computer control) unit. We went with that and haven't had a moments problem with it. Others have had to replace the computer control. Don't know if they even make the twisty-dial units any more, but we're a firm believer in avoiding the computer if possible.

If I remember correctly, the problem on mine is the controls are on the top of the door, as is the steam vent. Not sure about KitchenAid, but I believe some manufacturers have relocated the vent due to this kind of issue.

Posted

Just bought a Kitchen Aid-very impressed so far and so quiet, I often can't tell it's running.

Posted

Bought a Maytag about the same time JohnnyB did - been happy with mine as well, though it is just as loud as the old GE we had previously. Seems to clean and dry fine and no repairs yet.

Posted

E-gad (Thurston Howell III reference): any updates to this?

Last night the wife is cleaning up after dinner and yells to me, "I smell smoke!" I run into the kitchen and the smell of burning insulation hits me - the dishwasher is running. I pull off the bottom panel (continuing to run) and, while there is no smoke, it is evident the motor is producing the smell. We continued to monitor (for fire) and let it finish the cycle.

Ordinarily I'd just fix the thing, but the motor is no longer available and after 16 years (this May) of very heavy use, most of the rest of it has seen better days, too. What a machine though! I would definitely buy this same unit if it were available in some warehouse NOS!

So: what to buy: looks like Lowe's has a GE Profile all stainless for around $1,200 (and another $200 in store card rebates available). An online 'suggester' offered up Samsung (dw80f800) and Kitchen Aid (KUDE48FXSP) units.

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