Succinct profundity: Agree or disagree?

[Willie G. Moseley]

The owner of the company that's been publishing my books recently just said something (as an observer, not a collector or player) regarding the guitar market (and, I guess, his company's participation in it by publishing guitar hisory books):

"The guitar business is an odd one where heritage plays a bigger part in the present appeal than innovation. 

Agree or disagree?

 

[hamerhead]

Agree. Any new stuff on a guitar is typically - and soundly - bashed. The last real innovation that stuck was the Floyd Rose trem, which was accepted only because Eddie forced it to be. And until the next Eddie comes along, we will simply continue to recreate the '59 LP. Or Strat or Tele or 335.

[Dave Scepter]

Also why relic guitars are so popular?

[alantig]

Agree.  Paul Reed Smith said it during a tone wood demo, showing how different wood samples would ring out more musically than others, then said, "But you won't buy these because they're not mahogany, maple, rosewood, or ebony."  They also did a Neil Schon signature one year, but the production version had different woods than Neil's own guitar.  Someone asked why, and he said, "Because it's not the 'normal' guitar woods, so you won't buy it.  I think Neil knows a little bit about guitar tone and what sounds good, but most guitar players won't touch it if it's not made of the same woods that have been used for decades."

[diablo175]

As someone who is irretrievably stuck in the 80's and early 90's so far as my playing and guitar spec preferences go, I'd have to agree. But then, I'm also hurtling towards being "old" and have been musically irrelevant since birth. Expecting innovation (or the appreciation of it) from someone of my ilk, would be folly.

[Dutchman]

I love my rough top Adamas and Ovations. They where the go to for the stage in the 70's and 80's. Kind of fell out of favor now. But they where still innovative. Made in the same place as Hamers. They led me to Hamer guitars. 

There's a series on YouTube about where tone comes from. He really nailed some awesome old speaker cabinets. But guitars not so much difference.

 

[crunchee]

I gotta agree, but I'm not blind to something that I would consider 'better' than the original...if somebody has a used guitar for sale that has different hardware or pickups on it that I would consider as a positive upgrade, then I'm open to it.  Provided the guitar has the 'improvements' professionally installed, and isn't a hack job.

There are certain 'fashionable' woods that I would NEVER want in a guitar, such as basswood, or paulownia, or okoume.  Why?  Because they're soft, and dent way too easily for my liking...and having to drill screw holes in those woods is something I'd dread contemplating.    I've learned to respect poplar as a tone wood, plus it's nearly as hard/durable as alder...but only if the guitar makers select high-grade poplar in the same way as they do any of their other tonewoods.

Guitar makers like to use whatever is 'trendy' at the moment, but they often don't make a convincing argument in explaining why...and the why is at least as important as the wood or hardware or 'innovation', as anything else is to me.

That being said, it's still very hard to beat an ash-bodied Telecaster with the old three-saddle brass saddles in my mind.  And a 'real' Tele should NEVER have a 'belly cut' contour!   

[cmatthes]

Wonder what the Hall family thinks about this?

I think their company’s last “innovation” was in the mid-60s.

[RobB]

6 minutes ago, cmatthes said:

Wonder what the Hall family thinks about this?

I think their company’s last “innovation” was in the mid-60s.

They made a walnut-bodied 360. How, “edgy/trendy!”

[alantig]

6 hours ago, cmatthes said:

Wonder what the Hall family thinks about this?

I think their company’s last “innovation” was in the mid-60s.

Is that when they added the third door on "Let's Make A Deal"?

[Disturber]

The amp and pedal market are not the same though. I think it is much due to the fact that som many are home players. They play at bedroom levels, or have a home studio set up. A Kemper style amp is more convenient. Not many have the oportunity to play at loud volume. (though everyone SHOULD).

[VECTOR]

Disagree. I know several musicians that want and use the newest features. It depends on the music. Can hardly imagine a blues player with an 8string  with fanned frets, evertune bridge and using a high-gain mini amp or "software-amp". These guys of the new generation need this for their music and do not understand why they should buy old stuff that will not stay in tune for example. They are gear nerds too but in a different way. They don't care for "made of one-piece mahogany", bumblebees and so on. They are happy with uncommon wood choices made in Indonesia guitars or using recycling materials instead of "brazilian" because this makes them sound fresh. On the other hand I know enough traditional players so I don't think the grown magic factor or voodoo of the typical components will be forgotten.

[crunchee]

1 hour ago, VECTOR said:

Disagree. I know several musicians that want and use the newest features. It depends on the music. Can hardly imagine a blues player with an 8string  with fanned frets, evertune bridge and using a high-gain mini amp or "software-amp". These guys of the new generation need this for their music and do not understand why they should buy old stuff that will not stay in tune for example. They are gear nerds too but in a different way. They don't care for "made of one-piece mahogany", bumblebees and so on. They are happy with uncommon wood choices made in Indonesia guitars or using recycling materials instead of "brazilian" because this makes them sound fresh. On the other hand I know enough traditional players so I don't think the grown magic factor or voodoo of the typical components will be forgotten.

You almost make the 'new generation' sound like the guitar version of modern bass players.  

[Jakeboy]

Absolutely agree. Us guitarists are by and large hardcore traditionalists both in gear and in playing….so when a true innovator like Hendrix or EVH comes along, it knocks us for a loop and then the changes come. 
That said, Fender, Gibson, and Rickenbacker really nailed it early on and most “new” guitar innovations are ugly as sin.  I would hope us traditionalists would respond favorably to a pragmatic design that has pleasing aesthetics….but I ain’t holdin’ ’ my breath…

[LucSulla]

I think guitarists are conservative to a fault. For some reason, bass players seem less so. 

Quilter sure did save my ass last night after my tube amp went down though. 

2 hours ago, Jakeboy said:

That said, Fender, Gibson, and Rickenbacker really nailed it early on and most “new” guitar innovations are ugly as sin.

Did they? Or is that just what we all grew up seeing so that's what a guitar is? Had some headless, minimal design been popular in the 50s, would that be what we all love?

Maybe, maybe not. Is the failure of the Flying V and Explorer initially a sign that the earlier designs were the best or that the template was already set? That's the fun thing about existence being an N of 1. We can argue this back and forth, but there is really no way to know.

I'm not a fan of psychedelics, but it is interesting to read about early research into LSD back before people already had a set notion of what a trip would be. Some accounts fit the narrative; some don't. It's hard to know after a norm is set what is just sort of a quintessential aspect to a thing and what is just the norm influencing perception. 

[Jakeboy]

I think the eventual success of the Explorer, V, Jazzmaster, & Firebird shapes show  that changes are possible,  but they gotta look good. The Moderne and the Guild Thunderbird didn’t make it. 
This is an interesting convo.

[specialk]

2 hours ago, LucSulla said:

it is interesting to read about early research into LSD back before people already had a set notion of what a trip would be.

 

[Willie G. Moseley]

^^^Mom?

[alantig]

1 hour ago, Willie G. Moseley said:

^^^Mom?

Dude -  no moms.

[LucSulla]

18 hours ago, specialk said:

 

When they were testing it on military officers, around 90% came away saying basically, "Well that was weird and kinda fun!" And that was about it. 

The other 10% seemed to have an epiphany experience that made them question a great deal of things they previously held to be true. In the world of medical research, that is an enormous effect size, and was more than enough to convince the CIA that it could be very dangerous to systems of hierarchy. 

Outside of the world of research, 10% isn't all that much, but I think these days that number would be much higher because there is almost a century now of being told that taking a hit is going to change your life. So it does. The longer I stay in the social science game, the more I've come to think that, practically, the truth is whatever people believe it is regardless of whether or not that is objectively true. 

[cynic]

I mostly agree, but do have these in my strats.

[DaveL]

I was almost expecting them to say…

“All the collector’s are dying and the grim reaper is coming for you too!”  

   I’ll happily take “its an odd one”.   

[Jimbilly]

Mostly disagree: think of all the 'new and improved' gear you've tried over the past 40 years, only to go back to more traditional designs, probably a lot more with amps and processing than guitars. If the Steinberger or Fly really did the trick we'd mostly be playing those designs.  Maybe it's mostly because the sounds (in our heads) that we want are largely from those traditional designs.

 Bass players are more willing to play different stuff, but bass tones from decades ago are much less idolized: name your favorite bass tone from the 60s?, I grew up listening to a walkman, where you could barely hear the bass, and my car stereos always lacked any real low end. That being said, my Kubicki Ex Factor is a keeper.