Tried Out A New Hamer

[Hamerica]

Steve,

Thanks for the review, I agree with your viewpoints especially those expressed about the import market and our welcoming others whom have purchased the import line of Hamers into the fold.  We all would like for them to move up to the used Hamer USA line and eventually purchase NOS Stock or order a new Hamer which most folks here agree has moved well beyond that mark.

Hamerica

 

[kizanski]

37 minutes ago, Steve Haynie said:

Les Paul had his name taken off the Les Paul model guitars because he was going through a divorce and did not want Mary Ford to be able to get a part of the endorsement money. 

Most Les Paul players over the years have had no idea there was ever a person named Les Paul. 

The divorce thing might be true, but in the letter I read (LP to the Gibson brass), he said that he didn't like the (SG) design.

As for "most Les Paul players," that's purely your conjecture based on nothing.

[zorrow]

I would buy a new Vector of those, just because they seem well-built, aren't expensive, sport the "Hamer" brand on their headstock and also feature boomerang inlays. I'll keep an eye on local guitar shops.

As of a 4K Hamer USA, I'm not sure that's marketable at this very moment. They need to do first like Dean did. They need to score endorsers, maybe by approaching some previous users, such as the guys in Judas Priest, our own Kev Bower from the mighty HELL, Frank Aresti of Fates Warning, maybe Jeff Waters of Annihilator or his co-guitarist (he has a weird name I never happen to remember), the other guy in Night Ranger, as well as some semi-famous people in newer, "cooler" bands. They also need to lower the prices, also like Dean did, by providing an intermediate USA-made line, under 1.5K, I guess. They also need to hire Jol, Paul our Shishkov as consultants... or whoever else might add aunthenticity to the brand.

When they will have all those factors in place, including (somehow) famous people and credible distributors and luthiers saying the new "Hamer USA" axes are good, reasonable prices for the ordinary working musicians, plus backing the name with some credible consultants who would be involved in the design/construction/QA process, they do have an opportunity to succeed there, I think.

I'm looking forward to all that.  

[Steve Haynie]

Some here have said many times that Hamer made mistakes in marketing.  So, now there is an opportunity for someone to make different decisions on how to make the brand prominent and profitable.  Let's see if it works.  It has nothing to do with a new Hamer USA being made the same, just being able to sell them. 

[kizanski]

16 minutes ago, zorrow said:

They also need to hire Jol, Paul our Shishkov as consultants... or whoever else might add aunthenticity to the brand.

Paul is making guitars with his family, Shishkov is working on his own brand, and Jol is selling $38,000 Squabs.
Why would any of them drop what they're doing to help out "Hamer" and from where else would this authenticity come?

 

13 minutes ago, Steve Haynie said:

Some here have said many times that Hamer made mistakes in marketing.  So, now there is an opportunity for someone to make different decisions on how to make the brand prominent and profitable.

Too bad they didn't try a logical marketing approach when the Hamer builders were building Hamers.

[cmatthes]

1 hour ago, zorrow said:

I would buy a new Vector of those, just because they seem well-built, aren't expensive, sport the "Hamer" brand on their headstock and also feature boomerang inlays. I'll keep an eye on local guitar shops.

As of a 4K Hamer USA, I'm not sure that's marketable at this very moment. They need to do first like Dean did. They need to score endorsers, maybe by approaching some previous users, such as the guys in Judas Priest, our own Kev Bower from the mighty HELL, Frank Aresti of Fates Warning, maybe Jeff Waters of Annihilator or his co-guitarist (he has a weird name I never happen to remember), the other guy in Night Ranger, as well as some semi-famous people in newer, "cooler" bands. They also need to lower the prices, also like Dean did, by providing an intermediate USA-made line, under 1.5K, I guess. They also need to hire Jol, Paul our Shishkov as consultants... or whoever else might add aunthenticity to the brand.

When they will have all those factors in place, including (somehow) famous people and credible distributors and luthiers saying the new "Hamer USA" axes are good, reasonable prices for the ordinary working musicians, plus backing the name with some credible consultants who would be involved in the design/construction/QA process, they do have an opportunity to succeed there, I think.

I'm looking forward to all that.  

If you're looking to build a guitar brand based on endorsements from any of the aforementioned artists, you should just close up shop now.  That's not the kind of endorser that'll move enough units to keep the lights on in 2017.

JAM Industries also wouldn't pay the money required to bring any of the ex-Hamer guys on as consultants.  They're going to have to get the import line humming along and get some more mainstream endorsers feeding things or that simply won't work.  Things are a LOT different now than they were in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and even early 2000s.  The new company is coming from the corporate bean-counter angle, and I just don't see how a re-launch from scratch will make fiscal sense to anybody who knows squat about business.

[Lockbody]

The same review could have been done to your better Chibson that has the same providence to Gibson as these new  guitars do to Hamer.

"Looks like a Hamer, but made in Asia."

[polara]

I enjoy the quarterly installement of What Was Wrong With Hamer and Why it Can't Work Now.

I'll play, though Chris has already pretty clearly made the germane points.

• Is there a market? Question one before starting any business, unless you're simply sitting on a buttload of inventroy or capacity and need to blow it out.
  • My $0.02. Not much of a market. Getting someone from Night Ranger as an endorser in 2017 would be like getting Glenn Miller as an endorser in the 80s. No one starting a band now knows who they are, and Priest are a geriatric nostalgia act for retired Boomers. So what do today's young electric guitar players want? Is it already being made for them? How about some other sub-market like 35-to 50 blues guys? Teen girls? Russians? Nouveau-riche Chinese?
  • Is there an unmet demand? Not "I'd buy a new Standard" (no you won't because you won't pay more than a grand for a used Hamer on the HFC, the biggest Hamer nerdwork on the planet) but is there REAL demand?
  • Going out on a limb, is there the potential to CREATE demand? Is there the (risky) potential to be first to market with a wireless MIDI, touch-screen enabled, carbon-fiber 8-string guitar with Variax tech built in, for a wacky example? Or first using only non-CITES stuff like bamboo, and it comes with interchangable Lucite tops you can back-paint yourself? Or first wth some other idea that is so cool that even though there is no demand, you will CREATE demand? Longest of long shots but potnetial for big bucks.
• Can you clearly articulate your brand's vision and promise, and stick with it?
• Can you build to a price point?
  • Do it while maintaining adequate quality?
• Deliver product to customers?
  • Via dealers or direct
• Get buzz?
  • Social sharing, mass media, PR, and events.
  • Endorsers
• Scale the operation?
  • Sustain it?
  • Adapt?

The old Hamer seems like an unneeded addition in a crowded market. A few of the old Hamer hands could do it as a sideline until the last handful of geezers who remember Rockpile shuffle off into nursing homes, I suppose. And I don't see a big advantage on slapping the Hamer name on something unrelated to the old brand, as it has all the brand recognition as Studebaker.

[Studio Custom]

11 minutes ago, 0054 said:

4k seems steep

Until you realize Knaggs SSC's are on eBay and Reverb at 6k+, in reality they sell in the 4-5 range, like many high end PRS.   It is however a tiny, niche market.  

[tbonesullivan]

The question would all come down to exactly how much JAM industries got aside from the Hamer name. I heard that FMIC had packed up all the machines and taken them away. Did JAM get those? The CNC programs? Schematics and other intellectual property? How much of the special sauce was documented?  Also, how many original members do you need for it to be "HAMER USA" again? There were, I assume, quite a few people who came and went over the years, both in the Arlington Heights and New Hartford locations.

6 of my 7 Hamers are from the Arlington Heights factory. Only my Newport is from New Hartford.

This same discussion comes up a lot in the high end trombone world as well. There was a small operation named Greenhoe trombones, and they made incredible trombones. The owner, Gary Greenhoe, decided to retire, and to close up the shop, etc etc. They had a proprietary patented valve system, and a lot of other techniques. I don't know if he offered to sell the company to the employees, and they went their separate ways.

Well, two start a new high end trombone company, called M&W Trombones. Everyone says "this is the NEW Greenhoe!" because both worked there. They brought much of the knowledge and philosophy with them. They have set up shop, made some great designs, and everyone is happy.

Well, Gary Greenhoe apparently was enticed by the large Brass company Schilke, and sold all the rights and IP from Greenhoe trombones to them. They will now be making greenhoe trombones. They also have hired one of the former Greenhoe employees on as the head of that division, and he also is intimately familiar with the designs and philosophy. Well now, there are two camps, the "YES I CAN GET GREENHOE AGAIN" , and the "IT ISN'T A REAL GREENHOE WITHOUT ALL THE STAFF".

Which is correct?

[BubbaVO]

Outside this motley bunch, who even remembers what a Hamer USA guitar is?  From a brand recognition perspective, you're just as likely to come across someone who remembers Hammers.  Not really the cache of Gibson, PRS, etc.  - at least in the eyes of the general public.   

The thought of a new Hamer INDO in my stable doesn't make sense to me.  That's not to say the INDOs are bad guitars- not at all.  But I don't see what differentiates the Hamer INDO from any of the other well made imports.  To the chagrin of most of us who bought brand new Hamers , there are plenty of used Hamer USAs in that price range.   Those represent an even better bang for buck IMHO.   Earlier this year, I was happy to grab a used Newport for a price I couldn't have approached previously. Not surprisingly, It actually is one of the best Hamers I 've played.   

The thought of a new Hamer-JAM USA doesn't thrill me much.  Certainly not when Mike Shishkov is making better guitars than what I saw come out of Hamer USA IL.  To tell you the truth, the Ultimate is better than the Newport or my old Talladega (Hamer CT) too.  Given Chris's statements that the people and the production methods from Hamer USA IL & CT are long gone from JAM, then what's there for me?  A  new guitar from Hamer-JAM is just a guitar with the word "Hamer"printed on a headstock  now. 

Mike offered his Ultimates at a crazy reasonable price. Mike's carrying on the best traditions from IL & CT and adding his own mojo to the mix.    The guitars he's put out are jaw dropping great.   He's actually receiving buyers of his guitars at his house...he cares enough to make buying his guitars a truly personalized experience.  How cool is that?  Shishkov Guitars is where I'm parking the positive emotions for a guitar brand. YMMV.

[Biz Prof]

There's another thread on here from 2013 that is somewhat of an autopsy on the fixtures, jigs, machines, woods, etc. You might be able to search and find it.  The "secret sauce" of what made Hamer USA (to me, moreso New Hartford Hamer vs. Arlington Heights Hamer) what it was mostly about the craftsmen, their methods, and the wood. The neck joints were somewhat of a proprietary design/process and the lore of the tonewoods used at both facilities made Hamer different from most of its competitors. 

About this..,

7 minutes ago, tbonesullivan said:

The CNC programs?

I was under the impression that Hamer never used CNC machines. I might be mistaken. 

[bruce919]

4 minutes ago, Biz Prof said:

 

I was under the impression that Hamer never used CNC machines. I might be mistaken. 

Hamer did use CNC in New Hartford and I believe in Arlington Heights for just the rough routing of the bodies (outside shape. pickup & control cavities) The rest was done by hand or special fixtures.

[cmatthes]

10 minutes ago, tbonesullivan said:

The question would all come down to exactly how much JAM industries got aside from the Hamer name. I heard that FMIC had packed up all the machines and taken them away. Did JAM get those? The CNC programs? Schematics and other intellectual property? How much of the special sauce was documented?  Also, how many original members do you need for it to be "HAMER USA" again? There were, I assume, quite a few people who came and went over the years, both in the Arlington Heights and New Hartford locations.

They got the name and probably the IP/trademarks associated with the brand.  There is NOTHING that was left after New Hartford.  Files, blueprints, drawings, schematics, forms, logs, remaining inventory, partially-completed instruments and 100% of the documentation or anything related to production was either scattered to the winds or dumpstered.   Hell, even the supply of ivoroid binding was put into big blue Hazmat barrels and whisked away on a flatbed.  There was NOTHING LEFT.

This is quite different from the earlier-cited example about Leo Fender leaving Fender with the CBS buyout, or any various incarnations of Gibson over the years, because they all maintained all that stuff, as well as kept key individuals along in every transition.  Hamer USA was wiped off the face of the planet when FMIC closed it down - it's not like they trucked that stuff to Scottsdale or put it in storage somewhere...it is GONE.

Anything they would make in the USA would be a Washburn (or equivalent) version with a Hamer logo.  

[Biz Prof]

1 minute ago, bruce919 said:

Hamer did use CNC in New Hartford and I believe in Arlington Heights for just the rough routing of the bodies.

Well, I will be damned. I thought the significance of the huge, old Northfield bandsaw was that it was the machine used for that operation. 

[tbonesullivan]

Just now, Biz Prof said:

Well, I will be damned. I thought the significance of the huge, old Northfield bandsaw was that it was the machine used for that operation. 

There are a bunch of workshop videos on youtube. They still used the bandsaw for roughing out body blanks, as well as bookmatching maple tops, etc. Also, you can't make a CNC program without something to scan in, and the prototypes still needed to be made on something. I know some people are completely ANTI CNC, but honestly for solid body and carved hollow bodies, it's a no brainer. All the fit and finish is still done by hand.

11 minutes ago, cmatthes said:

They got the name and probably the IP/trademarks associated with the brand.  There is NOTHING that was left after New Hartford.  Files, blueprints, drawings, schematics, forms, logs, remaining inventory, partially-completed instruments and 100% of the documentation or anything related to production was either scattered to the winds or dumpstered.   Hell, even the supply of ivoroid binding was put into big blue Hazmat barrels and whisked away on a flatbed.  There was NOTHING LEFT.

This is quite different from the earlier-cited example about Leo Fender leaving Fender with the CBS buyout, or any various incarnations of Gibson over the years, because they all maintained all that stuff, as well as kept key individuals along in every transition.  Hamer USA was wiped off the face of the planet when FMIC closed it down - it's not like they trucked that stuff to Scottsdale or put it in storage somewhere...it is GONE.

Anything they would make in the USA would be a Washburn (or equivalent) version with a Hamer logo.  

That is a damn shame, and shows how little FMIC really gave a crap about Hamer. There was a lot they could have learned from those things, but they honestly just saw it as something that came along with their KMC acquisition. It's not really surprising that they are always apparently in such bad financial situation: they waste things they get left and right.

 

[cmatthes]

Just now, Biz Prof said:

Well, I will be damned. I thought the significance of the huge, old Northfield bandsaw was that it was the machine used for that operation. 

You may not be familiar with how a CNC machine works in guitar production.  It's not like you toss a log in one end and a finished guitar comes out the other end!  Pretty much every major (and most high-end boutique) builders are using those, and have been forever.  Knaggs, PRS, Huber, Kauer, Thorn, Stevens, the late Hamer USA, and countless other high-end guitar makers all use CNC machines.  It's not "cheating", it's reproducing a quality result within extremely close, repeatable tolerances.

Everybody uses bandsaws to rough cut blanks to some extent.  Nobody is just using a bandsaw to build guitars who knows what they're doing.

Pin routers (like used in Arlington Heights) are also fantastic tools, but are an older technology that isn't as laser-precise, take up much more production time, and also cause a great deal of wear-and-tear to the user's hands, wrists, arms, backs, etc.  Still a great tool to have in the shop, for sure.

CNC machines are definitely not a bad thing at all - that's an Ed-Roman fueled internet myth that has been propogated on countless message boards over the last two decades.  Those are truly a "Must" for any kind of quality, modern production where any significant number of instruments are being made.

 

[Biz Prof]

I was showing a lack of articulation rather than a lack of understanding--my fault. I definitely know a few things about CNC machines and how they are used in guitar production. In fact, I used to show my Ops Mgmt students the PRS videos that demonstrated the rough cut and shaping processes.  Sadly, many of the students thought that solid body guitars were made of plastic (egad)!

I was simply under the mistaken impression that Hamer continued to use the bandsaws to rough cut the bodies and pin routers to do the final shaping. It's not like they were making 100 units per day and needed the CNC, but they are truly wonderful tools, especially for high-production situations and where tolerances are mission-critical. 

[Studio Custom]

This is all nonsense.

If you are serious about bringing the brand back, you realize you will have to source examples from the used market and reverse engineer them.  You will need at least one significant employee from the past to let you in on the secret sauce and will need to fully outfit a new shop.  If you are not budgeting at least 1m for this you are probably doomed from the start.  This is not a start up in the traditional sense, as it has name recognition from the start, so marketing can be better utilized than beginning with, "Hi we're Hamer". 

I inquired at the time about purchasing the brand, and I spoke with Jol about being that person.  There was little interest in selling, and if possible at all, at a ridiculous price that made the numbers nonsensical. 

[The Shark]

True Cleveland Brown fans should be rooting for the Baltimore Ravens.  Just like those pesky Washington Nationals fans are really rooting for the Montreal Expos.  It's all so confusing!

A "Washburn" Hamer?  Meh...

If you ask me, Shishkov Guitars is a logical progression from Hamer.  I don't need Hamer anymore.  Not new ones anyway. 

[Punkavenger]

Sales of electric guitars have gone down drastically in recent years

If you want to buy a Hamer USA get a Shiskov ... If you want to buy an import get a Fujigen

[RobB]

48 minutes ago, Studio Custom said:

This is all nonsense.

I inquired at the time about purchasing the brand, and I spoke with Jol about being that person. 

Indeed. From tractor rentals to guitar manufacturing. What on earth could possibly go wrong?

[Studio Custom]

1 minute ago, RobB said:

Indeed. From tractor rentals to guitar manufacturing. What on earth could possibly go wrong?

I've turned around numerous businesses since, if you'd like to hire me we can negotiate my salary. 

[crunchee]

44 minutes ago, The Shark said:

If you ask me, Shishkov Guitars is a logical progression from Hamer.  I don't need Hamer anymore.  Not new ones anyway. 

IIRC, seems like somebody reported here on the HFC that Mike Shishkov managed to salvage his old workbench from the New Hartford facility (I think it was said that it had been sitting out on the loading dock), back when FMIC was dismantling the Hamer operation.  So that's something in the way of tradition, FWIW.

[ARM OF HAMER]

                                              What WAS Hamer is no longer, They made some VERY cool guitars and there are some great used USA models available at decent prices . IF I was in the market for a Hamer guitar right now I would put my hard earned $$$ toward a nice clean used USA Hamer. I can not comment on these "NEW" ones as far as how they are as instruments regarding build quality,,playability, and sound....................I just know that they are not what I now own. Does that make them a BAD guitar? No..............its that they have nothing to do with the guitars made by Hamer USA.